Defense

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Re: Defense

Postby NCF » Tue Oct 13, 2015 3:53 pm

The run defense against the Rams is getting unnecessarily beat up on.

As the game went on, we dared them to keep running. If you page through the GDT, there were some complaining about playing nickel at the end when STL was having success running the ball. The issue was they had no passing offense and I think McCarthy and Capers were going to let them run as much as they wanted. Even in 5 minute offense, down 2 scores they kept running. It wasn't going to beat us and in this passing league it usually will not.
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Re: Defense

Postby YoHoChecko » Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:22 pm

NCF wrote:The run defense against the Rams is getting unnecessarily beat up on.

As the game went on, we dared them to keep running. If you page through the GDT, there were some complaining about playing nickel at the end when STL was having success running the ball. The issue was they had no passing offense and I think McCarthy and Capers were going to let them run as much as they wanted. Even in 5 minute offense, down 2 scores they kept running. It wasn't going to beat us and in this passing league it usually will not.

Not only that... but again, on a run-by-run basis, the run game was not hurting us too badly. Without the 55-yard run, Gurley averaged 3.5ish ypc. Many of his runs were not successful plays. The yardage was more volume than success. Against Jamal Charles, I think I found that 6 of his 11 carries were for 2 or fewer yards. Lynch and Hyde were similarly stymied.

Since Forte (who just legitimately gutted us), the Packers have held RBs to 2 or fewer yards on 31 carries compared to 33 that have gained more. Many, many of those runs were still 3 or 4 yards (unlike against Forte who had many 8 to 20ish yard runs against us).

I'll take a 5, 7, or 11 every now and then... and even a non-scoring 55-yarder when up 2 scores, in exchange for routinely putting them in tough down and distance situations with run stuffs
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Re: Defense

Postby Pckfn23 » Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:38 pm

NCF wrote:The run defense against the Rams is getting unnecessarily beat up on.

As the game went on, we dared them to keep running. If you page through the GDT, there were some complaining about playing nickel at the end when STL was having success running the ball. The issue was they had no passing offense and I think McCarthy and Capers were going to let them run as much as they wanted. Even in 5 minute offense, down 2 scores they kept running. It wasn't going to beat us and in this passing league it usually will not.

If they had no passing offense, why not try to stop the run then? There was no reason to respect their passing offense. Ironically when we did respect it we gave up our longest pass.

Without the 55-yard run, Gurley averaged 3.5ish ypc.

You can't really take out a RBs best plays and say, "Look! He didn't really have a good day." If that were the case then RBs would rarely have good days. 3.47 without the long run is still respectable. Gurley ran the ball 30 times, we stopped him for no gain or less on 5 plays. 7 plays were between 1 and 2 yards. Normal in the NFL that most runs will be 3 or less yards. He had 10 runs over 5 yards and 5 runs over 10 yards. It wasn't a good day for the run defense. Weeks 2-4 were good days though.
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Re: Defense

Postby NCF » Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:42 pm

Pckfn23 wrote:
NCF wrote:The run defense against the Rams is getting unnecessarily beat up on.

As the game went on, we dared them to keep running. If you page through the GDT, there were some complaining about playing nickel at the end when STL was having success running the ball. The issue was they had no passing offense and I think McCarthy and Capers were going to let them run as much as they wanted. Even in 5 minute offense, down 2 scores they kept running. It wasn't going to beat us and in this passing league it usually will not.

If they had no passing offense, why not try to stop the run then? There was no reason to respect their passing offense. Ironically when we did respect it we gave up our longest pass.



Simple. Trying to stop the run makes you more susceptible to the pass. That's what STL wanted us to do and we didn't take the bait. It was an interesting chess match down the stretch and neither side really blinked.

Now you can argue that there are various ways to stop the run, but my main point is that they weren't going to come out of nickel in order to accomplish stopping the run. They eliminating the Rams passing game and they weren't about to about that back up.
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Re: Defense

Postby Pckfn23 » Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:44 pm

that they weren't going to come out of nickel in order to accomplish stopping the run.

We did at times with success. My contention is that we could have actively tried to stop the run more without much hindrance to our ability in stopping the pass.
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Re: Defense

Postby Beagle » Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:47 pm

What I really like about our defense is that we have some solid playmakers at all 3 levels. Raji and Daniels have been solid upfront with Pennell doing pretty well. Elliot, Peppers and Matthews have been playing well and our rookie DB Randall has been outstanding.

These guys are all making plays when the defense really needs it. Something I feel that has been lacking in our recent history. Hopefully we get healthy on the offense and defense keeps playing well.
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Re: Defense

Postby TheGreenMan » Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:49 pm

Pckfn23 wrote:
NCF wrote:The run defense against the Rams is getting unnecessarily beat up on.

As the game went on, we dared them to keep running. If you page through the GDT, there were some complaining about playing nickel at the end when STL was having success running the ball. The issue was they had no passing offense and I think McCarthy and Capers were going to let them run as much as they wanted. Even in 5 minute offense, down 2 scores they kept running. It wasn't going to beat us and in this passing league it usually will not.

If they had no passing offense, why not try to stop the run then? There was no reason to respect their passing offense. Ironically when we did respect it we gave up our longest pass.

Without the 55-yard run, Gurley averaged 3.5ish ypc.

You can't really take out a RBs best plays and say, "Look! He didn't really have a good day." If that were the case then RBs would rarely have good days. 3.47 without the long run is still respectable. Gurley ran the ball 30 times, we stopped him for no gain or less on 5 plays. 7 plays were between 1 and 2 yards. Normal in the NFL that most runs will be 3 or less yards. He had 10 runs over 5 yards and 5 runs over 10 yards. It wasn't a good day for the run defense. Weeks 2-4 were good days though.


I actually think as the game moved on the Rams were becoming a balanced attack. At first the Rams couldn't get anything going at all. Run game or passing. I felt we started to respect Foles a bit after a couple big plays in the air. He was still struggling mightily, but I wouldn't say we were daring the Rams to either run or pass. They were becoming a balanced attack.

Gurley was coming into his own. And that allowed Foles to help the Rams move the ball down the field. Unfortunately for him he decided to cough up the football one too many times when they were within scoring positions. All of which were not his fault - he was going to end up on a stretcher. He was hit on almost every single passing down.

Our run defense started off well - but overall we didn't finish on a high note.
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Re: Defense

Postby NCF » Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:53 pm

I still don't see it that way, but I get why someone would feel the way.

The 55-yard run and the 68-yard pass were huge black eyes on what was otherwise a brilliant defensive performance.
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Re: Defense

Postby YoHoChecko » Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:54 pm

Pckfn23 wrote:
Without the 55-yard run, Gurley averaged 3.5ish ypc.

You can't really take out a RBs best plays and say, "Look! He didn't really have a good day." If that were the case then RBs would rarely have good days. 3.47 without the long run is still respectable. Gurley ran the ball 30 times, we stopped him for no gain or less on 5 plays. 7 plays were between 1 and 2 yards. Normal in the NFL that most runs will be 3 or less yards. He had 10 runs over 5 yards and 5 runs over 10 yards. It wasn't a good day for the run defense. Weeks 2-4 were good days though.

I absolutely can do that. I can look and say "how successfully were they moving the ball through the run game?" The Rams were not able to get into a rhythm in which they were consistently moving the ball through the run. Looking at how many runs go for 2 or fewer yards, in most cases (depending on down and distance) is looking to see how many times your run D was successful. Think of it as a rudimentary success percentage. Gurley was MUCH better at that than Charles, Lynch, and Hyde were against us. 18 of his 30 carries went for more yardage, a solid 60%. He is the first in 4 weeks to have those runs on more than half of his carries. So yeah, he did pretty well.

But looking at how often your run game is successful, and it looks like our numbers line up at 12 plays of 2 or fewer yards (and I don't think any went for a first down, so I'd have to check). The Rams game is an example of an opponent committing to the run and having a pretty decent day of it, but still not consistently able to rely on it to move the ball and sustain drives. The three games prior were examples of teams not being able to get anything going through their run game with their running backs.

I'm not pretending that the long play didn't happen. I'm simply pointing out that it was but one play. And when I look at game flow and the way our run defense played, I have no problem with it. The Rams did not take over the game or control the game with the run. They got all that they could out of it--and that was 10 points.
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Re: Defense

Postby Pckfn23 » Tue Oct 13, 2015 5:06 pm

You can do whatever you choose, but it doesn't make it meaningful.

Gurley was MUCH better at that than Charles, Lynch, and Hyde were against us. 18 of his 30 carries went for more yardage, a solid 60%. He is the first in 4 weeks to have those runs on more than half of his carries. So yeah, he did pretty well


Which is exactly what I was pointing out.

The Rams stuck with the run because the run was successful. Why would they stick with it if it was not?
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Re: Defense

Postby Beagle » Tue Oct 13, 2015 5:08 pm

I felt like the Rams should have been featuring the run more often with Gurley and Austin out of the backfield. Austin would have given them more speed and spread out the defense.

The defense gave up 10 total points and in my book, that is about all that matters.
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Re: Defense

Postby HeavyD » Tue Oct 13, 2015 5:12 pm

Pckfn23 wrote:You can do whatever you choose, but it doesn't make it meaningful.

Gurley was MUCH better at that than Charles, Lynch, and Hyde were against us. 18 of his 30 carries went for more yardage, a solid 60%. He is the first in 4 weeks to have those runs on more than half of his carries. So yeah, he did pretty well


Which is exactly what I was pointing out.

The Rams stuck with the run because the run was successful. Why would they stick with it if it was not?


The pass defense and pressure caused the Rams to run the ball down 2 touchdowns in the 4th qtr. It was successful by default. They chewed up the clock to their own detriment. That is a defensive coordinators wet dream.

For once, why don't you ignore the numbers. In this scenario, they are meaningless.
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Re: Defense

Postby YoHoChecko » Tue Oct 13, 2015 5:13 pm

Pckfn23 wrote:You can do whatever you choose, but it doesn't make it meaningful.

The Rams stuck with the run because the run was successful. Why would they stick with it if it was not?

Have you ever seen Jeff Fisher coach? Or Nick Foles throw against us?

The Rams stuck with the run because it was working BETTER. But I've seen what getting beat by a running game looks like (Peterson has done it to us a number of times). This wasn't it. I'm more on NCF's page. Two big play black eyes in an overall excellent defensive performance.

And when the two biggest plays of the game for a team still don't lead to points? You're doing very well.
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Re: Defense

Postby Pckfn23 » Tue Oct 13, 2015 5:36 pm

As a whole it was a good performance. Never denied that. I just thought we could have done better stoppping the run.
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Re: Defense

Postby yoop » Tue Oct 13, 2015 9:19 pm

HeavyD wrote:
Pckfn23 wrote:You can do whatever you choose, but it doesn't make it meaningful.

Gurley was MUCH better at that than Charles, Lynch, and Hyde were against us. 18 of his 30 carries went for more yardage, a solid 60%. He is the first in 4 weeks to have those runs on more than half of his carries. So yeah, he did pretty well


Which is exactly what I was pointing out.

The Rams stuck with the run because the run was successful. Why would they stick with it if it was not?


The pass defense and pressure caused the Rams to run the ball down 2 touchdowns in the 4th qtr. It was successful by default. They chewed up the clock to their own detriment. That is a defensive coordinators wet dream.

For once, why don't you ignore the numbers. In this scenario, they are meaningless.


YPC is almost a meaningless stat, I know we all use it, but we'd be better served to look at the first downs, and 3rd and short plays, it's all about moving the chains, and down and distance, and the Rams where in 3rd and long all day, first we knocked there passing game out of sync, as well as shut down the run, mostly, so they went back to the run mostly in a act of desperation, but it didn't produce first downs, and they had to pass on 3rd and long, and except for a couple completions here and there it failed worse then the run, Gurly got a lot of yards, but he didn't move the chains, so while he had a successful outing, the team hardly prospered from that success at all, Great freaking defense Domer :wink:
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