Las Vegas

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Re: Las Vegas

Postby texas » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:08 am

wallyuwl wrote:

Except the USA isn't the only place where these things happen.


Not only that, but you know what doesn't happen here, specifically because we have guns? Government takeovers and coups.

That onion article is frequently shared by leftists of average intelligence, as if they think it's some great argument in their favor.
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Re: Las Vegas

Postby Mendeleev » Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:54 am

texas wrote:
wallyuwl wrote:

Except the USA isn't the only place where these things happen.


Not only that, but you know what doesn't happen here, specifically because we have guns? Government takeovers and coups.


Yemen and Iraq with coups, no coups in Japan. So weird. But I doubt you've ever let math get in the way of a good crazy claim.
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Re: Las Vegas

Postby texas » Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:02 am

Mendeleev wrote:
texas wrote:
wallyuwl wrote:

Except the USA isn't the only place where these things happen.


Not only that, but you know what doesn't happen here, specifically because we have guns? Government takeovers and coups.


Yemen and Iraq with coups, no coups in Japan. So weird. But I doubt you've ever let math get in the way of a good crazy claim.


I think it's funny whenever a leftist tries to reference "math".

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But back to the topic at hand:

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Re: Las Vegas

Postby salmar80 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:58 pm

I'm veeeeery leftist (but not communist) on an American scale, but even I don't see how THIS shooting could've been prevented by any gun laws within reason.

A lone wolf with no history of mental illness nor criminal history, and who isn't tied to any extremist group, is about impossible to stop.
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Re: Las Vegas

Postby raptorman » Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:45 pm

salmar80 wrote:I'm veeeeery leftist (but not communist) on an American scale, but even I don't see how THIS shooting could've been prevented by any gun laws within reason.

A lone wolf with no history of mental illness nor criminal history, and who isn't tied to any extremist group, is about impossible to stop.

Yup. Only some people never get that. See, it's easier to blame the gun in this case because it fits and agenda.

Tim McVeigh used a rental truck, fertilizer and diesel fuel. Zero restrictions have been put on those.
9/11 terrorist used box cutters to take over planes. Zero restrictions have been put on those. And the planes weren't blamed.
Boston bombers used pressure cookers. Zero restrictions have been put on those.
A truck was used in France to kill 84. See any restrictions on trucks?
In August, 84 people were shot and killed and another 348 wounded in the City of Chicago. Yet you heard nothing on the news.
In September 57 people were shot and killed and another 273 wounded in the City of Chicago, and you heard nothing.

So, for people like Jimmy Kimmel and other people speaking out, I have to ask, why the selective outrage? If someone want's to kill people, no law will stop them. ]

I could lay out a plan to travel the country and take out people one at a time with long range shooting. It would take the cops at least a week to figure out the shooting were connected, if they ever did. One could do this for months and get away with it. One shot, one kill. Move on. Look at how long they took to catch the beltway snipers in DC in 2002. Had they moved on after the first few, they might still be looking for them.
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Re: Las Vegas

Postby dirty sanchez » Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:15 pm

salmar80 wrote:I'm veeeeery leftist (but not communist) on an American scale, but even I don't see how THIS shooting could've been prevented by any gun laws within reason.

A lone wolf with no history of mental illness nor criminal history, and who isn't tied to any extremist group, is about impossible to stop.
Your conspicuous absense during Antifa rallies didn't go unoticed. :wink: But you are correct. Nothing could have prevented this.

Of course, that didn't stop Hillary from trying to stay relevent by making it a political issue.
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Re: Las Vegas

Postby renatusvestifex » Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:06 am

salmar80 wrote:I'm veeeeery leftist (but not communist) on an American scale, but even I don't see how THIS shooting could've been prevented by any gun laws within reason.

A lone wolf with no history of mental illness nor criminal history, and who isn't tied to any extremist group, is about impossible to stop.


If you don't sell guns, and esp. not mass threatening guns like semi-automatic rifles, then the probability of that decreases drastically, because this dude wouldn't have gotten guns at all or with a lot more difficulty and therefore chance to get caught.

I think the Americans are wrong here and they will suffer the upcoming years more and more, but I understand them. Being able to have guns is THE symbol of freedom and respect from gov. to its people. In 50 years the US will be where Europe is today and we won't talk about it, it's coming...I travel to friends in TX every year for some weeks since 2001 and you can gradually see the change of the national conscience already.

@texas: I am afraid you underestimate politics. They slowly deteriorate your freedom, so that you don't see it coming, just like the frog in the bottle of water that gets hot gradually. You are as screwed as we in Europe because our consitutions are too vague and with holes, so they get raped and we can't get much done other than hope for some messias that turns the table.
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Re: Las Vegas

Postby texas » Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:14 am

renatusvestifex wrote:
@texas: I am afraid you underestimate politics. They slowly deteriorate your freedom, so that you don't see it coming, just like the frog in the bottle of water that gets hot gradually. You are as screwed as we in Europe because our consitutions are too vague and with holes, so they get raped and we can't get much done other than hope for some messias that turns the table.


If you think I don't know that, then you haven't been reading my posts. Although, I do think we have a chance whereas you guys don't really have a chance, because we're better than Europe.

I thought about how to describe it without writing the last sentence the way I did (I really tried), but that's really the gist of it. We have a much larger population of people who work hard, don't make excuses, don't get sucked into the $#!!, have creativity, don't do groupthink, don't live in big cities, talk tough, and generally have a better attitude. Not saying you guys don't have a lot of those people, and not saying that we don't have a lot of losers, but there's a distinct attitude and tradition permeating here in certain places that, from what I understand, has been beaten into submission by high-soy diets and self-castration over there. Also not saying we're not screwed- I think it's probably more likely than not that we are screwed, but I think we at least have a chance to right the ship.

I think DJT isn't doing much to stem the long-term problems we speak of (although he sure is doing well with the short term pissing matches), but I think his election is evidence of that "#$%! you" quality that America still emanates. To be fair, the UK's "#$%! it let's do it" wrt to Brexit also made me respect them, so y'all have got it too in some places, but I couldn't see another majorly-developed country giving such a huge middle finger to the established order like we did, in large part specifically so we could give a huge middle finger to the established order.

I've been heavily involved in hurricane recovery. Watching the responses to the recent hurricanes, frankly, has strengthened my viewpoints in some ways, one of which being the attitude that America is something special. Houston completely dropped all excuses and politics for 2 weeks straight, and just about everyone who pitched in decided to just do so at the drop of a hat, without regards to any sense of entitlement or anything.

Contrast that with Puerto Rico, a socialist $#!!. There has been a distinct sense of entitlement from over there, more bitching, less self-help, more "gimme free stuff", and as a result, they're not doing as well. My group is doing whatever we can to help them, despite this, but they're not helping themselves. They're whinier, they're more entitled, some of them have gotten mad because we're helping out with other hurricanes (they think we should only be helping them apparently). That's the type of $#!! I imagine existing in higher quantities outside of America. We've got our problems, but I at least can be optimistic.
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Re: Las Vegas

Postby renatusvestifex » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:06 am

texas wrote:Although, I do think we have a chance whereas you guys don't really have a chance, because we're better than Europe. We have a much larger population of people who work hard, don't make excuses, don't get sucked into the $#!!, have creativity, don't do groupthink, don't live in big cities, talk tough, and generally have a better attitude.


You are right (and I know it because I know both continents).

I think DJT isn't doing much to stem the long-term problems we speak of (although he sure is doing well with the short term pissing matches), but I think his election is evidence of that "#$%! you" quality that America still emanates.


Yes, but that's what will slowly deteriorating, your "citizen maxi", your independence, your hard-nose-ship. Look at the whole NFL anthem mess - no way this happens 10 years ago. Look at the SJW sh*t that cralws out since about 10 years. First signs.... More and more your country will go left, because global capitalism paradoxically demands that.

You'd need a guy that stops that on a fundamental basis, kind of bringing back Abe Lincoln via time travel to today and he'd do the turnaround your people would need. Trump is not fanatic and visionary enough. You'd need Trump with a bit more Adolf Hitler in him (not too much though). I hope the best, but I see the evolution. Yes, outside the cities, deep in West Texas you still got ol' Frank who's not much away spiritually from a dude in the 1880's, but in the cities it begins and thru WWW it spreads. Unlike you I am not optimistic since the powers that want a weak and soft US are tremendous, even within your country. Kind of relieving that we in Europe have it already behind us, we are slaves who think they are free - as we know you can't be in a more hopeless situation than that.
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Re: Las Vegas

Postby texas » Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:49 am

renatusvestifex wrote:
texas wrote:Although, I do think we have a chance whereas you guys don't really have a chance, because we're better than Europe. We have a much larger population of people who work hard, don't make excuses, don't get sucked into the $#!!, have creativity, don't do groupthink, don't live in big cities, talk tough, and generally have a better attitude.


You are right (and I know it because I know both continents).

I think DJT isn't doing much to stem the long-term problems we speak of (although he sure is doing well with the short term pissing matches), but I think his election is evidence of that "#$%! you" quality that America still emanates.


Yes, but that's what will slowly deteriorating, your "citizen maxi", your independence, your hard-nose-ship. Look at the whole NFL anthem mess - no way this happens 10 years ago. Look at the SJW sh*t that cralws out since about 10 years. First signs.... More and more your country will go left, because global capitalism paradoxically demands that.

You'd need a guy that stops that on a fundamental basis, kind of bringing back Abe Lincoln via time travel to today and he'd do the turnaround your people would need. Trump is not fanatic and visionary enough. You'd need Trump with a bit more Adolf Hitler in him (not too much though). I hope the best, but I see the evolution. Yes, outside the cities, deep in West Texas you still got ol' Frank who's not much away spiritually from a dude in the 1880's, but in the cities it begins and thru WWW it spreads. Unlike you I am not optimistic since the powers that want a weak and soft US are tremendous, even within your country. Kind of relieving that we in Europe have it already behind us, we are slaves who think they are free - as we know you can't be in a more hopeless situation than that.


Yeah I can see your point of view, maybe because I'm in Texas I'm naturally a bit more optimistic. Don't get me wrong, I still think our chances are under 50-50, but I guess I'm just choosing to hope for the best.

I think our problems are systemic and are related to low-T, Alex Jones-style gay frog types of forces that are turning the men into women, and the women into men.
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Re: Las Vegas

Postby mike » Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:34 pm

raptorman wrote:Another mass shooting, another gun debate. So, let’s look at this debate. Those on the left want stricter gun laws. But what good would they do? The man in Las Vegas broke laws. Which law stopped him? The law against murder? The law against owning fully automatic weapons? The law about discharging a firearm in city limits? With all those laws you would think one of them would have stopped him. But they didn’t. Why? Because he was a criminal. And criminals don’t abide by laws. But here we go again in the merry go round about guns.

First, they will bring ups Sandy Hook. And as horrible as it was, that’s the standard they will use. We just can’t let this happen again. Really? How about Chicago? Since Sandy Hook, 158 children have been killed on and in the streets of Chicago. Why don’t we hear about them? Maybe because it happens one child at a time. Or maybe because most of them are black kids shot by black men. BLM doesn’t like talking about them so I am sure the Democrats don’t want to either.

Then it will be about the 30,000 gun deaths each year. Now, one has to remember this number includes murders, suicides and accidents. But it’s the largest number they can come up with. If we just got rid of assault weapons this number would drop. Nope, it won’t. Maybe an outright ban like France has. That has worked out so well that the only people in France who have guns are the terrorists and the police. And the police are outgunned. But let’s look at that 30,000 number. Amazingly it’s about the same number of car deaths in the US each year. Now, many of those car deaths are caused by drunk drivers. We have the ability to pretty much eliminate drunk driving. It’s simple. Put a breathalyzer in each car that one has to blow into before you can start the car. This would eliminate about 15,000 deaths a year. But, do you see anyone jumping on that bandwagon? I wonder why? Could it be that it would be an inconvenience to the masses? After all, why should law abiding citizens be made to blow into a tube because of a couple hundred thousand drunks?

Third. It will be about the fact that the founding father couldn’t have imagined the rapid fire firearms we have today, so they must be banned. The founding fathers couldn’t have imagined the internet, TV, photography, cell phones and many other of the myriad forms in which we exercise our freedom of speech. Should we limit that to what was around in 1780’s? The printing press and the spoken word? Fact is, back when the first 10 amendments were written there were several multi fire weapons available, so they already knew the technology was there. This is a false narrative pushed by people with little knowledge of the history of guns.

Fourth. It will be about the second amendment and the term “well regulated militia”. Which according to many means the “National Guard”. The founding fathers were very much in tune with the fact of England’s common law allowed the right to bear arms to people well before the Bill of Rights. They knew that the people needed to be able to not only defend themselves from criminals but also as a defense against an overzealous government.

And lastly, it will be about the fact that we have police forces to protect us. This is the biggest lie of all. The police have no constitutional duty to protect anyone. Period. The Supreme Court has so ruled at least 10 times on this issue since 1984. The job of the police is to investigate crimes and arrest criminals, not protect everyday citizens.


the assault weapon should never have been legal, that in and of itself would have stopped this masacre, it's just that simple Raptor, read this article, it debunks every comment you just made, the AR15 is a M16 without full auto, which depending how much you want to spend can be made to fire full auto, both are built on the platform of the finest infantry rifle ever produced, it's a combat weapon, and it's not a defense weapon as much as it's a weapon designed for attack.

and don't start hiding behind the 2nd amendment, just read what the article has to say about that.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrisladd/ ... 97982b1fad
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Re: Las Vegas

Postby texas » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:35 pm

mike wrote:
raptorman wrote:Another mass shooting, another gun debate. So, let’s look at this debate. Those on the left want stricter gun laws. But what good would they do? The man in Las Vegas broke laws. Which law stopped him? The law against murder? The law against owning fully automatic weapons? The law about discharging a firearm in city limits? With all those laws you would think one of them would have stopped him. But they didn’t. Why? Because he was a criminal. And criminals don’t abide by laws. But here we go again in the merry go round about guns.

First, they will bring ups Sandy Hook. And as horrible as it was, that’s the standard they will use. We just can’t let this happen again. Really? How about Chicago? Since Sandy Hook, 158 children have been killed on and in the streets of Chicago. Why don’t we hear about them? Maybe because it happens one child at a time. Or maybe because most of them are black kids shot by black men. BLM doesn’t like talking about them so I am sure the Democrats don’t want to either.

Then it will be about the 30,000 gun deaths each year. Now, one has to remember this number includes murders, suicides and accidents. But it’s the largest number they can come up with. If we just got rid of assault weapons this number would drop. Nope, it won’t. Maybe an outright ban like France has. That has worked out so well that the only people in France who have guns are the terrorists and the police. And the police are outgunned. But let’s look at that 30,000 number. Amazingly it’s about the same number of car deaths in the US each year. Now, many of those car deaths are caused by drunk drivers. We have the ability to pretty much eliminate drunk driving. It’s simple. Put a breathalyzer in each car that one has to blow into before you can start the car. This would eliminate about 15,000 deaths a year. But, do you see anyone jumping on that bandwagon? I wonder why? Could it be that it would be an inconvenience to the masses? After all, why should law abiding citizens be made to blow into a tube because of a couple hundred thousand drunks?

Third. It will be about the fact that the founding father couldn’t have imagined the rapid fire firearms we have today, so they must be banned. The founding fathers couldn’t have imagined the internet, TV, photography, cell phones and many other of the myriad forms in which we exercise our freedom of speech. Should we limit that to what was around in 1780’s? The printing press and the spoken word? Fact is, back when the first 10 amendments were written there were several multi fire weapons available, so they already knew the technology was there. This is a false narrative pushed by people with little knowledge of the history of guns.

Fourth. It will be about the second amendment and the term “well regulated militia”. Which according to many means the “National Guard”. The founding fathers were very much in tune with the fact of England’s common law allowed the right to bear arms to people well before the Bill of Rights. They knew that the people needed to be able to not only defend themselves from criminals but also as a defense against an overzealous government.

And lastly, it will be about the fact that we have police forces to protect us. This is the biggest lie of all. The police have no constitutional duty to protect anyone. Period. The Supreme Court has so ruled at least 10 times on this issue since 1984. The job of the police is to investigate crimes and arrest criminals, not protect everyday citizens.


the assault weapon should never have been legal, that in and of itself would have stopped this masacre, it's just that simple Raptor, read this article, it debunks every comment you just made, the AR15 is a M16 without full auto, which depending how much you want to spend can be made to fire full auto, both are built on the platform of the finest infantry rifle ever produced, it's a combat weapon, and it's not a defense weapon as much as it's a weapon designed for attack.

and don't start hiding behind the 2nd amendment, just read what the article has to say about that.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrisladd/ ... 97982b1fad
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Re: Las Vegas

Postby raptorman » Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:39 am

mike wrote:
the assault weapon should never have been legal, that in and of itself would have stopped this masacre, it's just that simple Raptor, read this article, it debunks every comment you just made, the AR15 is a M16 without full auto, which depending how much you want to spend can be made to fire full auto, both are built on the platform of the finest infantry rifle ever produced, it's a combat weapon, and it's not a defense weapon as much as it's a weapon designed for attack.

and don't start hiding behind the 2nd amendment, just read what the article has to say about that.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrisladd/ ... 97982b1fad

About 80% of what he writes is opinion disguised as a fact. Yet I'll take one of his so called facts and tear it down for you.

No one is permitted to drive on our roads without obtaining a license. Every automobile is registered. Every transaction is taxed. All vehicle owners are required to maintain insurance to cover potential harm. Despite tight regulation, car ownership is ubiquitous. Cars remain a major cause of injury and death, but insurance has played a critical role over the years in driving safety improvements.
First. There are unlicensed drivers driving every day on every road. That is a fact. Second. 20% of all vehicles on the road are uninsured. And 30% of those insured are under insured. Cars kill more people than guns. And, we could make them safer even still. All we need to do is put a breathalyzer in each car. So each time you want to start it you have to blow into a tube. It would cut drunk driving by 95%.

AR-15 to M-16. First, yes they are basically the same gun. However, even the M-16 no longer has a full auto mode. They have a 3 shot burst mode. And the term "assault weapon" is a made up name. Any weapon used to kill anyone is an assault weapon.
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Re: Las Vegas

Postby mike » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:59 pm

raptorman wrote:
mike wrote:
the assault weapon should never have been legal, that in and of itself would have stopped this masacre, it's just that simple Raptor, read this article, it debunks every comment you just made, the AR15 is a M16 without full auto, which depending how much you want to spend can be made to fire full auto, both are built on the platform of the finest infantry rifle ever produced, it's a combat weapon, and it's not a defense weapon as much as it's a weapon designed for attack.

and don't start hiding behind the 2nd amendment, just read what the article has to say about that.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrisladd/ ... 97982b1fad

About 80% of what he writes is opinion disguised as a fact. Yet I'll take one of his so called facts and tear it down for you.

No one is permitted to drive on our roads without obtaining a license. Every automobile is registered. Every transaction is taxed. All vehicle owners are required to maintain insurance to cover potential harm. Despite tight regulation, car ownership is ubiquitous. Cars remain a major cause of injury and death, but insurance has played a critical role over the years in driving safety improvements.
First. There are unlicensed drivers driving every day on every road. That is a fact. Second. 20% of all vehicles on the road are uninsured. And 30% of those insured are under insured. Cars kill more people than guns. And, we could make them safer even still. All we need to do is put a breathalyzer in each car. So each time you want to start it you have to blow into a tube. It would cut drunk driving by 95%.

AR-15 to M-16. First, yes they are basically the same gun. However, even the M-16 no longer has a full auto mode. They have a 3 shot burst mode. And the term "assault weapon" is a made up name. Any weapon used to kill anyone is an assault weapon.


some people will break laws, we need cars, we don't need assault weapons, and that is the term given to the AR15 platform, it's a broad term to say any weapon used to kill is a assault weapon, the distinction is the easier ability to do so with a weapon designed for military use, it was designed for military combat, it really doesn't matter if it's sold as a semi auto, it's easily retooled for select fire with a bump stock or trigger kit, criminals can or will always break the law, the goal is to make it harder for them to do so.

I've spoken about the Chicago problem before, so this again caught my attention, the ability for a criminal to go to some states and by weapons, and the lax private gun sale regulations, the two biggest contributors to bad guys buying guns.

Lie #6: Chicago has tight gun restrictions and mass gun violence. Ergo, gun laws don’t work.

Chicago’s seemingly intractable problem with gun violence is one of America’s fondest fascinations. It’s also a myth. Chicago has more gun murders than other large cities like New York and Los Angeles, thanks mostly to its long, unsecured border with North Alabamastan (sometimes called Indiana). However, Chicago’s murder rate still lags far behind the nation’s leaders, many of which are in red states with loose gun restrictions.

America’s capital of gun violence is in deep-red Louisiana. New Orleans suffers from four times the rate of gun murders as Chicago. Such terrifying urban hellscapes as Kansas City, Memphis and Atlanta all rack up much higher rates of gun violence than Chicago. Expand the inquiry beyond crime, to include accidental gun deaths and suicide, and Chicago simply recedes from the frame. The obvious conclusion also happens to be an empirical fact: states with high levels of gun ownership have higher levels of gun death.

With its supposedly restrictive gun regulations, why should Chicago even show up on the list? Only through a determination to avoid the obvious can one struggle with this question.

A Chicagoan can walk across a street into Indiana and purchase firearms from an unlicensed seller with no tracking of that transaction. That person can then walk back across the street into Chicago and commit a crime. This is a common practice. Most of the guns used in a crime in Chicago are originally purchased in Indiana or Mississippi. And of course, Indiana’s rate of gun deaths is roughly a third higher than in Illinois.

In a strictly technical sense, most of those untracked transactions are illegal. However, our gun laws have been crafted to make enforcement virtually impossible, a fine introduction to the next lie.
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Re: Las Vegas

Postby wallyuwl » Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:08 am

A lot of murders happen in Chicago. Homicides, I should say. Official stats to back up your list of "lies," mike?
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