What the Dreamer Fight is Really About

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Re: What the Dreamer Fight is Really About

Postby BF004 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:48 pm

dirty sanchez wrote:
BF004 wrote:
dirty sanchez wrote:
BF004 wrote:Good lord guys, what a $#!! conversation so far. Pick it up or this is getting closed.
So what do you have to add to "pick it up"?


Perhaps some intellectual discussion that securing the border/slowing the influx of people illegally is to fix that desire to come here illegally. Crack down on employers hiring them, make marijuana legal, grown locally and regulated for safety and taxed to hell, increase legal immigration and make the process simpler, give us 4 more years of Barry's economy. Limit the desire to come here illegally through intelligence, not fear.

I thought I addressed that when I said that the best deterrent is to not give them all the free food, housing, and other handouts that make it so enticing for them to come over. But apparently I didn't. :?

As for leagalizing marijuana and taxing it, sounds good on paper. I was all for it, but now I have to question it. Since the cost of the legal marijuana is so much higher, current users will continue to get it from their normal sources. And for all of those people new to the market who are getting it legally, many of them will eventually get introduced to the illegal suppliers who they will then buy from making a big boom in business for the illegal drug trade.


Oh, and I don't think anyone cares if you go to Iran. I think Iran does, though. So don't expect the US to bail you out of prison because you get arrested for spying. You should know better.


I am sure some people will still look to get Marijuana cheaper and illegally, but most won't. Just like most don't pirate or bootleg movies, rather they pay for Netflix, or they don't buy counterfeit clothes or phones for a quarter of the price from some sketchy website from Taiwan. Some may, majority don't. Just like there is no underground tobacco market in the US either. A) its hard and difficult to find a reliable illegal dealer as many many will quit B) why break the law when you can abide by the law and just pay a fraction more C) people will trust the regulated products better rather than buying some 3rd hand sketchy product grown in a 3rd world country versus buying some at the farmer's market you know was grown down the road.

I just absolutely can not get behind the idea that legalizing Marijuana, growing exponentially more in the US, will lead to a larger illegal trade boom.

And absolutely, limiting welfare to those who are not citizens is too smart not to do.


Securing the border and fixing this mess has to be a huge priority. Just amnesty or just building a wall or even both of those does nothing to stop us having the same problem in 5 years again. Maybe the wall will make it a little harder to get here.

Need to make the border more secure and stop the reasons for people to come here illegally.
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Re: What the Dreamer Fight is Really About

Postby dirty sanchez » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:39 pm

BF004 wrote:I am sure some people will still look to get Marijuana cheaper and illegally, but most won't. Just like most don't pirate or bootleg movies, rather they pay for Netflix, or they don't buy counterfeit clothes or phones for a quarter of the price from some sketchy website from Taiwan. Some may, majority don't. Just like there is no underground tobacco market in the US either. A) its hard and difficult to find a reliable illegal dealer as many many will quit B) why break the law when you can abide by the law and just pay a fraction more C) people will trust the regulated products better rather than buying some 3rd hand sketchy product grown in a 3rd world country versus buying some at the farmer's market you know was grown down the road.
It all depends on how much it is taxed. Tax it too much and the consumer will continue to get it illegally. Also, lower income people account for most of the customer base. Money is tighter for them and they need every extra dollar for essentials like food. Especially if they smoke a lot of it. :8)
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Re: What the Dreamer Fight is Really About

Postby BF004 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:45 pm

dirty sanchez wrote:
BF004 wrote:I am sure some people will still look to get Marijuana cheaper and illegally, but most won't. Just like most don't pirate or bootleg movies, rather they pay for Netflix, or they don't buy counterfeit clothes or phones for a quarter of the price from some sketchy website from Taiwan. Some may, majority don't. Just like there is no underground tobacco market in the US either. A) its hard and difficult to find a reliable illegal dealer as many many will quit B) why break the law when you can abide by the law and just pay a fraction more C) people will trust the regulated products better rather than buying some 3rd hand sketchy product grown in a 3rd world country versus buying some at the farmer's market you know was grown down the road.
It all depends on how much it is taxed. Tax it too much and the consumer will continue to get it illegally. Also, lower income people account for most of the customer base. Money is tighter for them and they need every extra dollar for essentials like food. Especially if they smoke a lot of it. :8)

Should be a wealth of information now on utilization, law enforcement $ spent, prices change of product, how much is still sold illegally, tax revenue collected, incarceration, drug related hospital visits, tax paying jobs created growing and/or selling, with a handful of state legalizing it now. That should take some of the guessing and estimating on outcomes of a national legalization.
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Re: What the Dreamer Fight is Really About

Postby dirty sanchez » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:56 pm

BF004 wrote:
dirty sanchez wrote:
BF004 wrote:I am sure some people will still look to get Marijuana cheaper and illegally, but most won't. Just like most don't pirate or bootleg movies, rather they pay for Netflix, or they don't buy counterfeit clothes or phones for a quarter of the price from some sketchy website from Taiwan. Some may, majority don't. Just like there is no underground tobacco market in the US either. A) its hard and difficult to find a reliable illegal dealer as many many will quit B) why break the law when you can abide by the law and just pay a fraction more C) people will trust the regulated products better rather than buying some 3rd hand sketchy product grown in a 3rd world country versus buying some at the farmer's market you know was grown down the road.
It all depends on how much it is taxed. Tax it too much and the consumer will continue to get it illegally. Also, lower income people account for most of the customer base. Money is tighter for them and they need every extra dollar for essentials like food. Especially if they smoke a lot of it. :8)

Should be a wealth of information now on utilization, law enforcement $ spent, prices change of product, how much is still sold illegally, tax revenue collected, incarceration, drug related hospital visits, tax paying jobs created growing and/or selling, with a handful of state legalizing it now. That should take some of the guessing and estimating on outcomes of a national legalization.
I'm heading out to California today so I should have a better understanding of the issue. But knowing California, they will levy a ridiculous tax on the weed at first and then probably reduce the tax after they figure out the illegal market is still thriving because of it.
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Re: What the Dreamer Fight is Really About

Postby texas » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:42 pm

You guys can't play that card: I clearly said I didn't endorse that option. It also clearly would work and probably result in less deaths overall, as very few people would attempt the sometimes dangerous trek.

But no, nobody here actually wants landmines or firing squads at the border.
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Re: What the Dreamer Fight is Really About

Postby Mendeleev » Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:20 am

APB wrote:I'm with BF004 on some of the comments here. The death penalty? Land mines? Really? If leftism is a scourge then I don't know what I'd call that level of rightism...?

I'd be interested to hear the take from one of our left leaning members. Surely there's a lurker with some thoughts to share. Hell, I'm tempted to play devils advocate just to refute some of the extreme right comments posted.


There is nothing wrong in pointing out bad views from people who support the same party as you.

Not directly addressing the weird points brought up here, but as for DACA, what is the viewpoint of all those here on deporting children who've lived almost their entire life here. They didn't have agency in their residence, and now you want to send them to a different country, one in which they may not do well. I am an immigrant, (legally, because I know what some members would post right away), but if someone where to send me back to my parents home country, I would be royally screwed. I don't speak any of those languages, and have a specialized degree which may not be useful where I am sent. I am an asset to my current company, I pay taxes.

I feel its unnecessarily cruel, and klcking one person out doesn't mean another gets their job.
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Re: What the Dreamer Fight is Really About

Postby wallyuwl » Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:56 am

Mendeleev wrote:
APB wrote:I'm with BF004 on some of the comments here. The death penalty? Land mines? Really? If leftism is a scourge then I don't know what I'd call that level of rightism...?

I'd be interested to hear the take from one of our left leaning members. Surely there's a lurker with some thoughts to share. Hell, I'm tempted to play devils advocate just to refute some of the extreme right comments posted.


There is nothing wrong in pointing out bad views from people who support the same party as you.

Not directly addressing the weird points brought up here, but as for DACA, what is the viewpoint of all those here on deporting children who've lived almost their entire life here. They didn't have agency in their residence, and now you want to send them to a different country, one in which they may not do well. I am an immigrant, (legally, because I know what some members would post right away), but if someone where to send me back to my parents home country, I would be royally screwed. I don't speak any of those languages, and have a specialized degree which may not be useful where I am sent. I am an asset to my current company, I pay taxes.

I feel its unnecessarily cruel, and klcking one person out doesn't mean another gets their job.

We all need to remember the DACA "kids" (who are almost all legally adults now) are in fact in the USA illegally, if not for the protection afforded them by Obamas unconstitutional executive order.

That said, I would be OK with permanent legal status, but not citizenship. But they cant ever get govt benefits. Cant bring their parents, or siblings, or Uncle Jose. And are deported if they are ever found guilty of a violent crime or felony.
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Re: What the Dreamer Fight is Really About

Postby BF004 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:03 am

Mendeleev wrote:
APB wrote:I'm with BF004 on some of the comments here. The death penalty? Land mines? Really? If leftism is a scourge then I don't know what I'd call that level of rightism...?

I'd be interested to hear the take from one of our left leaning members. Surely there's a lurker with some thoughts to share. Hell, I'm tempted to play devils advocate just to refute some of the extreme right comments posted.


There is nothing wrong in pointing out bad views from people who support the same party as you.

Not directly addressing the weird points brought up here, but as for DACA, what is the viewpoint of all those here on deporting children who've lived almost their entire life here. They didn't have agency in their residence, and now you want to send them to a different country, one in which they may not do well. I am an immigrant, (legally, because I know what some members would post right away), but if someone where to send me back to my parents home country, I would be royally screwed. I don't speak any of those languages, and have a specialized degree which may not be useful where I am sent. I am an asset to my current company, I pay taxes.

I feel its unnecessarily cruel, and klcking one person out doesn't mean another gets their job.


Agree here on most of this. No one wants to break up families. The point for me is how do we stop this same issue arising 10-15 years from now? Amnesty definitely doesn't, if anything, will encourage it more. The border does need to be secure, legal immigration should be expedited and increased, and some level of amnesty should be given.

If someone wants to be a legal US citizens, follow the laws, and pay taxes, please let them. It is too hard to come here legally and the benefits are too great to come here illegally.

Putting these stupid quotas in have just increased illegal activity, same way prohibition increased illegal alcohol use and the war on drugs increases illegal marijuana use. Gov't should be our babysitter, let people control their own lives.
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Re: What the Dreamer Fight is Really About

Postby TheSkeptic » Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:25 pm

There are a few groups that benefit from illegals.
#1 Employers who want to depress wages and benefits such as workers compensation.
#2. Liberal politicians that want illegal votes. It is too easy for non-citizens to vote, even several times.
#3 Prison guards

Everyone else loses. Taxpayers support them through welfare. Legal workers have to compete with them and the lower wages trickle up. Everyone's wages except maybe the top 1% would be significantly higher without illegals. Legal immigrants get crowded out. Our society benefits from highly educated legal immigration, but these people frequently must live in a slum the first year, and be the crime victims of the illegals. People on the highways die because if illegal and incompetent drivers. People who have an emergency medical issue must wait in the emergency room. And everyone who has kids must fear the 14 year old heroin dealer who is a Dreamer.
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Re: What the Dreamer Fight is Really About

Postby texas » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:41 pm

Yeah these dreamers by and large aren't just "hard working child immigrants trying to make it in the world"

Like 80% of them aren't educated at all, the average age is something like 24, and they all vote straight Democrat.

I'd be open to some sort of "hey let's not deport them to a country they don't even know" deal, but at the same time, we've got to prevent them from voting and taking the jobs of Americans.
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Re: What the Dreamer Fight is Really About

Postby texas » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:56 pm

But Ann Coulter has it right:

If things aren’t done, you can say ‘adios’ to whatever your pet issue is, whether it is abortion or the budget or taxes or guns. Get ready to lose, because Democrats decided, ‘Sorry, America, we tried this the easy way. We tried to get you to vote for us, but you wouldn’t, so we brought in ringers. And they’re gonna be voting, tens and tens of millions of them.'


A lot of well-meaning Republicans want to help out their fellow man, which is a good thing, but these immigrants never come here and respect the governing ideology that got us this far.

Texas is having the same problem with Californians right now- they've turned their state unliveable, and then they see they can get the same lifestyle in Texas for like 1/5th of the price, so they come here but then vote for all their stupid ideas that caused their state to become unliveable in the first place.
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Re: What the Dreamer Fight is Really About

Postby Trudge » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:40 am

You quote Ann Coulter and expect us to take it seriously?
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Re: What the Dreamer Fight is Really About

Postby dirty sanchez » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:58 am

texas wrote:But Ann Coulter has it right:

If things aren’t done, you can say ‘adios’ to whatever your pet issue is, whether it is abortion or the budget or taxes or guns. Get ready to lose, because Democrats decided, ‘Sorry, America, we tried this the easy way. We tried to get you to vote for us, but you wouldn’t, so we brought in ringers. And they’re gonna be voting, tens and tens of millions of them.'


A lot of well-meaning Republicans want to help out their fellow man, which is a good thing, but these immigrants never come here and respect the governing ideology that got us this far.

Texas is having the same problem with Californians right now- they've turned their state unliveable, and then they see they can get the same lifestyle in Texas for like 1/5th of the price, so they come here but then vote for all their stupid ideas that caused their state to become unliveable in the first place.

Nuke Austin. Problem solved.
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Re: What the Dreamer Fight is Really About

Postby Pugger » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:02 pm

wallyuwl wrote:
Mendeleev wrote:
APB wrote:I'm with BF004 on some of the comments here. The death penalty? Land mines? Really? If leftism is a scourge then I don't know what I'd call that level of rightism...?

I'd be interested to hear the take from one of our left leaning members. Surely there's a lurker with some thoughts to share. Hell, I'm tempted to play devils advocate just to refute some of the extreme right comments posted.


There is nothing wrong in pointing out bad views from people who support the same party as you.

Not directly addressing the weird points brought up here, but as for DACA, what is the viewpoint of all those here on deporting children who've lived almost their entire life here. They didn't have agency in their residence, and now you want to send them to a different country, one in which they may not do well. I am an immigrant, (legally, because I know what some members would post right away), but if someone where to send me back to my parents home country, I would be royally screwed. I don't speak any of those languages, and have a specialized degree which may not be useful where I am sent. I am an asset to my current company, I pay taxes.

I feel its unnecessarily cruel, and klcking one person out doesn't mean another gets their job.

We all need to remember the DACA "kids" (who are almost all legally adults now) are in fact in the USA illegally, if not for the protection afforded them by Obamas unconstitutional executive order.

That said, I would be OK with permanent legal status, but not citizenship. But they cant ever get govt benefits. Cant bring their parents, or siblings, or Uncle Jose. And are deported if they are ever found guilty of a violent crime or felony.


If any of these "kids" want citizenship they have to go to the back of the line and go thru the process EVERY OTHER LEGAL IMMIGRANT DOES. And they can't bring in all their relatives. These relatives have to use the legal channels too. If these "kids" don't want to get that green card they can leave, voluntarily or not.

I blame this mess on Congress and employers turning a blind eye to this for too many decades.
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Re: What the Dreamer Fight is Really About

Postby Pugger » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:06 pm

Trudge wrote:You quote Ann Coulter and expect us to take it seriously?


She says a lot of outrageous things but she is right about this, unfortunately. :?
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