9/11

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Re: 9/11

Postby get louder at lambeau » Sat Sep 19, 2015 11:50 pm

wallyuwl wrote:This thread is way too long. And I used to make posts just as long that resulted in threads just as long. I'm tired just scrolling through! :lol:

Edit: Cheese curds. :banana


Sorry, Wally. Probably my fault more than anyone else's. :oops:

Hey, you're a UW guy. Any info on that Fetzer guy that was talked about in the last couple pages? He's from UW Madison, right?
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Re: 9/11

Postby raptorman » Sun Sep 20, 2015 2:59 am

get louder at lambeau wrote:
Good point. But what kind of records are you referring to? Financial, or something else?
Any records.

Absolutely solid thought process, IMO. I have never bumped into the cruise missile theory that Beagle is beating up on, as far as the WTC. I agree that it sounds pretty dumb. I have heard a theory about a cruise missile hitting the Pentagon. Not sure why, other than the realistically suspicious point that, even with all the cameras on and near the most secure building in the world, they never released a pic of the plane whatsoever. I don't know what to think of it, other than that it's not what normally would happen, and that the same thing didn't happen at the WTC. Plenty of footage of planes at that location. None at the Pentagon? Is there a good explanation that I haven't heard? Odd, at least. To wonder why is not paranoid, IMO.


Every see a video of the first plane hitting the twin towers? There is one that I know of. Someone just happened to have a camera rolling. Why only one? With the thousands of cameras in New York you would think there would be more. Fact is the cameras were not pointing were the planes were going. Same at the Pentagon. The cameras were not pointed at the side of the building but at the entrance's to the building.


I don't know about how many people that would take. I think the planes were real. No need for an increase in staffing with real planes that really hit where they say they did.
The more people you need to get rid of the more people have to be involved, the greater the chance of someone saying something later on.
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Re: 9/11

Postby wallyuwl » Sun Sep 20, 2015 3:15 am

get louder at lambeau wrote:
Hey, you're a UW guy. Any info on that Fetzer guy that was talked about in the last couple pages? He's from UW Madison, right?


Went to La Crosse not Madison. No idea about Fetzer. Not even sure who he is or what he is about as I haven't read the last several pages in any sort of depth.
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Re: 9/11

Postby dsr » Sun Sep 20, 2015 9:58 am

So much of the conspiracy theory is just plain stupid. The cruise missile hitting the Pentagon, for example.

The theory is, the US government and its allies in the Israeli Government, the Saudi government, the BBC, and the five or six US press companies, wanted it to look like a plane crashed into the Pentagon. They had two ways of doing this:

1. Crash a plane into the Pentagon.
2. Crash a cruise missile into the Pentagon. Distribute a few plane parts around the Pentagon so it looks like a plane has crashed. Hijack a plane, fly it somewhere over land or sea, make sure the air traffic controllers are in on the plan so they don't track it, dispose of it so no trace is ever found, and murder all the occupants, disposing of them too so no trace is ever found.

Why? Why why why why why? Why on earth would option 2 be used? It is nonsense.
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Re: 9/11

Postby get louder at lambeau » Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:00 pm

raptorman wrote:
get louder at lambeau wrote:
Good point. But what kind of records are you referring to? Financial, or something else?
Any records.


Well, there have been some financial records that were mentioned and even investigated that mention indications of insider trading in the days before the attacks. This made the mainstream news shortly after 9/11. As I understand it, the investigation wasn't dropped due to lack of evidence that insider trading happened, but do to not being able to link the people involved to al Qaeda. Basically it was already assumed that al Qaeda was responsible from the day of the event on, and lack of obvious connection with them was considered to be sufficient reason to drop the inquiry. That's what I have heard mentioned, anyway. I haven't looked into it much. If you find different/better info, I'd be interested.

Absolutely solid thought process, IMO. I have never bumped into the cruise missile theory that Beagle is beating up on, as far as the WTC. I agree that it sounds pretty dumb. I have heard a theory about a cruise missile hitting the Pentagon. Not sure why, other than the realistically suspicious point that, even with all the cameras on and near the most secure building in the world, they never released a pic of the plane whatsoever. I don't know what to think of it, other than that it's not what normally would happen, and that the same thing didn't happen at the WTC. Plenty of footage of planes at that location. None at the Pentagon? Is there a good explanation that I haven't heard? Odd, at least. To wonder why is not paranoid, IMO.


Every see a video of the first plane hitting the twin towers? There is one that I know of. Someone just happened to have a camera rolling. Why only one? With the thousands of cameras in New York you would think there would be more. Fact is the cameras were not pointing were the planes were going. Same at the Pentagon. The cameras were not pointed at the side of the building but at the entrance's to the building.


I install security cameras for small businesses. Simple, low-budget systems. I find it hard to believe that one of the most secure buildings in the world, the Pentagon, didn't have any wide-angle cameras that pointed outward that would catch SOMETHING other than what they released. Outward-facing wide angle cameras mounted on the building is one of the first things that we do, even in cheap, basic small business camera systems that have just 4 to 16 cameras.

Some would say the fact that there was only one video of that first plane hitting the WTC could be considered suspicious as well. Did someone just get lucky? But no one else did, in a metro area of 20 million or so? That sounds kinda improbable. Nobody got any other shots at all? None of the thousands of tourists were filming the NY skyline from Ellis Island or somewhere?

Well, as to other people who might have gotten video, there WERE these five guys. They were said to have been filming when the first plane hit. Here is a comment from their Lawyer - "You got a group of guys that are taking pictures, on top of a roof, of the World Trade Center. They're speaking in a foreign language. They got two passports on 'em. One's got a wad of cash on him, and they got box cutters. Now that's a scary situation." That was THEIR lawyer admitting to those details. They were arrested on 9/11, and were found to be Israelis. They were held in solitary confinement, and failed polygraphs. They have since said publicly that their "purpose was to document the event". They instantly blamed Palestinians for the attack, as soon as they were arrested.

Their boss was interviewed by the FBI. When they tried to interview him again, he had already fled to Israel. His company, Urban Moving Systems, is now thought to have been a Mossad (Israeli intelligence) front. Where is the video that they shot, if they shot one? Where are the pictures, one of which is said to show one of them holding a lit lighter up in front of the burning WTC? Why would they have been let go? According to this story, its because "Israeli and U.S. government officials worked out a deal." I guess that's all we get to know.

Here's the story - http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=123885&page=1

The more people you need to get rid of the more people have to be involved, the greater the chance of someone saying something later on.


Agreed. Although it should be noted that normal protocol for secret operations is to "compartmentalize" things so that people would only know their own little part, not the whole plan, and would be threatened with Court Martial or similar if they spoke a word of what they knew. For example, "TS/SCI" according to the video below stands for a "TOP SECRET / SENSISTIVE COMPARTMENTALIZED INFORMATION." Very few people would be privy to the entirety of any secret USG plan. They would only know as much as they need to know.

The USG has successfully hidden PLENTY of operations before. Secrecy is a known and required specialty of theirs. We only know about things that are eventually declassified, like the Manhattan Project, or the ones that are ineffectively hidden, like Iran Contra, which I should note STILL sounds like a crazy "conspiracy theory" that seems both bizarre and unlikely even decades after it was exposed. But it happened. With respect to the Manhattan Project, 120,000 people were involved, and even Harry Truman, when he was Vice President of the United States, was not informed. He only found out about it when he became President.

Despite the absolutely massive scale, they were able to keep the Manhattan Project secret. I don't think anything similar would have been required to hide USG involvement with the 9/11 operation. I don't even think it would have taken thousands. Al Qaeda is said to have pulled off this massive, world-changing attack using only agents numbering in the low dozens. More would be required if the USG was involved, but I don't think it has to be thousands. Maybe, but I don't see why it would take that many.

Maybe it would take a hundred? A couple hundred? The 60 or so Israeli spies that were are mentioned in this report, which just went away without any further mention, could probably help. They reportedly included spies with experience in "explosive ordnance units," among other things. That would come in handy. And again, the report just disappeared after airing. No follow-up. No retraction. This clip is only still available because someone remembered seeing it, had it recorded, and posted it online. Still to this day, 14 years later, I don't think many Americans have ever heard this information at all.

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Re: 9/11

Postby get louder at lambeau » Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:14 pm

dsr wrote:So much of the conspiracy theory is just plain stupid. The cruise missile hitting the Pentagon, for example.

The theory is, the US government and its allies in the Israeli Government, the Saudi government, the BBC, and the five or six US press companies, wanted it to look like a plane crashed into the Pentagon. They had two ways of doing this:

1. Crash a plane into the Pentagon.
2. Crash a cruise missile into the Pentagon. Distribute a few plane parts around the Pentagon so it looks like a plane has crashed. Hijack a plane, fly it somewhere over land or sea, make sure the air traffic controllers are in on the plan so they don't track it, dispose of it so no trace is ever found, and murder all the occupants, disposing of them too so no trace is ever found.

Why? Why why why why why? Why on earth would option 2 be used? It is nonsense.


I agree. That theory doesn't make sense to me either. Don't fool yourself into thinking this is as simple as the "Official theory" vs. a single agreed-to "conspiracy theory" though. Lots of people have lots of different theories.

The reason these theories won't die is because the official version doesn't add up, and the people who WROTE the official story, the 9/11 Commission, have said things that SHOULD make us wonder. Take a look at their comments - http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/03/ ... nment.html
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Re: 9/11

Postby get louder at lambeau » Mon Sep 21, 2015 10:08 pm

How many people here know that someone in the USG "declared war" on the Pentagon the very day before 9/11, calling it "a matter of life and death" for every American?

The next day, the Pentagon was hit with a plane in the 9/11 attacks, and this story just went away, never to be heard from again. Weird, right? Some people claim that the plane hit right in the budget analysts' office where they were investigating the allegedly missing trillions of dollars that caused Rumsfeld to "declare war" on the Pentagon bureaucracy the day before.

Here's the original story, from the LA Times, dated September 11, 2001 -
http://articles.latimes.com/2001/sep/11/news/mn-44574
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Re: 9/11

Postby dsr » Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:47 am

get louder at lambeau wrote:How many people here know that someone in the USG "declared war" on the Pentagon the very day before 9/11, calling it "a matter of life and death" for every American?

The next day, the Pentagon was hit with a plane in the 9/11 attacks, and this story just went away, never to be heard from again. Weird, right? Some people claim that the plane hit right in the budget analysts' office where they were investigating the allegedly missing trillions of dollars that caused Rumsfeld to "declare war" on the Pentagon bureaucracy the day before.

Here's the original story, from the LA Times, dated September 11, 2001 -
http://articles.latimes.com/2001/sep/11/news/mn-44574

Well, that's a clincher. Evidence doesn't get any more reliable than that.

Why bother to agree with me that one of the conspiracy theories is plain stupid, and then immediately add one that's as bad?
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Re: 9/11

Postby raptorman » Tue Sep 22, 2015 5:12 am

get louder at lambeau wrote:How many people here know that someone in the USG "declared war" on the Pentagon the very day before 9/11, calling it "a matter of life and death" for every American?

The next day, the Pentagon was hit with a plane in the 9/11 attacks, and this story just went away, never to be heard from again. Weird, right? Some people claim that the plane hit right in the budget analysts' office where they were investigating the allegedly missing trillions of dollars that caused Rumsfeld to "declare war" on the Pentagon bureaucracy the day before.

Here's the original story, from the LA Times, dated September 11, 2001 -
http://articles.latimes.com/2001/sep/11/news/mn-44574
Welllll.......the part of the Pentagon that was hit was unoccupied at the time due to construction in that section. So the budget office would not have been were the plane hit. Another theory that people always post about is that the windows did not break. Some may have and still stayed in place. One of parts of the re-doing the Pentagon was putting tinting on the windows which they had done in this section. One of the benefits of tinting is it helps prevent the glass from breaking in explosions and hits like this. What most people don't know is that in the next 9 months, every window in every Air Force building had tinting put on for this reason.
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Re: 9/11

Postby get louder at lambeau » Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:34 pm

raptorman wrote:Welllll.......the part of the Pentagon that was hit was unoccupied at the time due to construction in that section. So the budget office would not have been were the plane hit.


The section was unoccupied? I hadn't heard that. Got a link? 125 ground based victims died in the Pentagon, according to Wiki, including ranks up to a 3 star General. That doesn't seem to fit with what you have heard.

I did find mention of recent renovations, on the page about the highest ranking victim, General Timothy J Maude, a US Army Chief of Staff. He was at a meeting in his new office when the plane struck. - "His offices had just days before been moved to the most recently renovated section of the Pentagon."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Maude
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victims_o ... n_Memorial
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Re: 9/11

Postby get louder at lambeau » Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:40 pm

dsr wrote:
get louder at lambeau wrote:How many people here know that someone in the USG "declared war" on the Pentagon the very day before 9/11, calling it "a matter of life and death" for every American?

The next day, the Pentagon was hit with a plane in the 9/11 attacks, and this story just went away, never to be heard from again. Weird, right? Some people claim that the plane hit right in the budget analysts' office where they were investigating the allegedly missing trillions of dollars that caused Rumsfeld to "declare war" on the Pentagon bureaucracy the day before.

Here's the original story, from the LA Times, dated September 11, 2001 -
http://articles.latimes.com/2001/sep/11/news/mn-44574

Well, that's a clincher. Evidence doesn't get any more reliable than that.

Why bother to agree with me that one of the conspiracy theories is plain stupid, and then immediately add one that's as bad?


Ugh. That kind of conversation doesn't tend to lead anywhere but to pointless bickering. Sorry I mentioned that.

Here it is again without that part. What are your thoughts on the more substantive part, dsr, now that you aren't distracted by the rumor? Did you already know about this?

How many people here know that someone in the USG "declared war" on the Pentagon the very day before 9/11, calling it "a matter of life and death" for every American?

The next day, the Pentagon was hit with a plane in the 9/11 attacks, and this story just went away, never to be heard from again. Weird, right?


Anyone find that interesting at all, or just me? Rumsfeld mentions the Pentagon missing TRILLIONS of dollars. Enough unaccounted for money to make 2300 new BILLIONAIRES. There are less than 500 known billionaires in the entire USA, just for reference of how HUGE that amount of money is.

"$8,000 for every man, woman, and child in America," in Rumsfeld's words, missing. Unaccounted for. I don't know about you, but I could use that money, and I hate the thought of it being taken from me through taxes and then wasted or stolen. The new Secretary of Defense "decares war" on the Pentagon bureaucracy, calling it "life or death" for every American. YAY! All of us hate to think about our hard-earned tax money being wasted through Government boondoggles, fraud, and inefficiencies, right? Go Rumsfeld!

Then the same building he declared war on gets hit with an unprecedented terrorist strike the next day, an attack which appears to have stopped Rumsfeld's "war" in it's tracks, never to be resurrected in the 14 years since. Sure doesn't look like we won this "life or death" war. We started a bunch of other wars instead, and it just went away.

Here's a good infographic on what 2.3 trillion looks like. It's an almost unimaginably large quantity of money. -

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Re: 9/11

Postby get louder at lambeau » Tue Sep 22, 2015 4:54 pm

All the links to Rumsfeld's September 10th, 2001 full speech that I can find are now dead. I can only find short clips. It would be good to see the entire speech for context. Anyone have any luck digging up a video or transcript of the whole thing? Is it just lost to time forever?

Even the official link, from a date search at defense.gov pulls up "file not found".
http://archive.defense.gov/speeches/def ... =9&yr=2001
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Re: 9/11

Postby get louder at lambeau » Tue Sep 22, 2015 5:34 pm

Here ya go, Raptor - an article that talks about what you heard about that wing being unoccupied. Looks like that had some truth to it, as the renovations weren't yet 100% complete, but it was not unoccupied. They had mostly completed the renovations and about 80% of people were back in their offices at the time of the attack. This article is dated less than a month after the attacks and is from "Architecture Week".

That casualties were not much higher is attributed primarily to the fact that the portion of the building hit, the so-called "Wedge One," had been recently renovated. Contrary to initial reports, the reason for the low casualty rates was not that the offices were still vacant.

According to Pentagon renovation manager Lee Evey, about 80 percent of the Wedge One workers had returned to their offices. That sector of the building, therefore, potentially housed about 3500 workers that day. What saved so many lives, indisputably, is the structural stiffening Wedge One had undergone as part of a much needed, nearly completed, upgrade.

The exterior walls had been reinforced with steel beams and columns, bolted where they met at each floor.

http://www.architectureweek.com/2001/1003/news_1-1.html
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Re: 9/11

Postby dsr » Tue Sep 22, 2015 8:20 pm

get louder at lambeau wrote:What are your thoughts on the more substantive part, dsr, now that you aren't distracted by the rumor? Did you already know about this?

How many people here know that someone in the USG "declared war" on the Pentagon the very day before 9/11, calling it "a matter of life and death" for every American?

The next day, the Pentagon was hit with a plane in the 9/11 attacks, and this story just went away, never to be heard from again. Weird, right?


Anyone find that interesting at all, or just me? Rumsfeld mentions the Pentagon missing TRILLIONS of dollars. Enough unaccounted for money to make 2300 new BILLIONAIRES. There are less than 500 known billionaires in the entire USA, just for reference of how HUGE that amount of money is.

"$8,000 for every man, woman, and child in America," in Rumsfeld's words, missing. Unaccounted for. I don't know about you, but I could use that money, and I hate the thought of it being taken from me through taxes and then wasted or stolen. The new Secretary of Defense "decares war" on the Pentagon bureaucracy, calling it "life or death" for every American. YAY! All of us hate to think about our hard-earned tax money being wasted through Government boondoggles, fraud, and inefficiencies, right? Go Rumsfeld!

Then the same building he declared war on gets hit with an unprecedented terrorist strike the next day, an attack which appears to have stopped Rumsfeld's "war" in it's tracks, never to be resurrected in the 14 years since. Sure doesn't look like we won this "life or death" war. We started a bunch of other wars instead, and it just went away.

I can see two conspiracy theories here. One, Rumsfeld planned his war literally and organised the attacks because he didn't approve of the governmment; two, Rumsfeld planned this war metaphorically, not literally, and the US government were so afraid of it that they launched a pre-emptive strike within 24 hours.

Can you please explain which, if either, you're suggesting? It's quite tricky to provide counter-arguments when all you offer is vague hints.
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Re: 9/11

Postby get louder at lambeau » Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:03 pm

dsr wrote:
get louder at lambeau wrote:What are your thoughts on the more substantive part, dsr, now that you aren't distracted by the rumor? Did you already know about this?

How many people here know that someone in the USG "declared war" on the Pentagon the very day before 9/11, calling it "a matter of life and death" for every American?

The next day, the Pentagon was hit with a plane in the 9/11 attacks, and this story just went away, never to be heard from again. Weird, right?


Anyone find that interesting at all, or just me? Rumsfeld mentions the Pentagon missing TRILLIONS of dollars. Enough unaccounted for money to make 2300 new BILLIONAIRES. There are less than 500 known billionaires in the entire USA, just for reference of how HUGE that amount of money is.

"$8,000 for every man, woman, and child in America," in Rumsfeld's words, missing. Unaccounted for. I don't know about you, but I could use that money, and I hate the thought of it being taken from me through taxes and then wasted or stolen. The new Secretary of Defense "decares war" on the Pentagon bureaucracy, calling it "life or death" for every American. YAY! All of us hate to think about our hard-earned tax money being wasted through Government boondoggles, fraud, and inefficiencies, right? Go Rumsfeld!

Then the same building he declared war on gets hit with an unprecedented terrorist strike the next day, an attack which appears to have stopped Rumsfeld's "war" in it's tracks, never to be resurrected in the 14 years since. Sure doesn't look like we won this "life or death" war. We started a bunch of other wars instead, and it just went away.

I can see two conspiracy theories here. One, Rumsfeld planned his war literally and organised the attacks because he didn't approve of the governmment; two, Rumsfeld planned this war metaphorically, not literally, and the US government were so afraid of it that they launched a pre-emptive strike within 24 hours.

Can you please explain which, if either, you're suggesting? It's quite tricky to provide counter-arguments when all you offer is vague hints.


Well, that's because I am not suggesting a theory, dsr. I don't have a theory about it. I find it suspicious that this just went away. Eisenhower's dire warning about the Military Industrial Complex naturally comes to mind, but I can't claim to have a theory. I'm working on it.

It just doesn't add up right. (No Pentagon accounting pun intended.) I asked if anyone knew about it, since it seems most haven't heard of it. I guess we can't just discuss what we find in good faith? Everything has to be "argued" and "counter-argued" right off the bat? That's just dumb, IMO.

The amount Rumsfeld says is unaccounted for is more than the entire amount of gross revenue for the US Federal Government for 2001. But the story just died without explanation.

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