Meet Obamatrade - The Trans-Pacific Partnership

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Re: Meet Obamatrade - The Trans-Pacific Partnership

Postby get louder at lambeau » Wed Jun 24, 2015 4:13 pm

flapackfan wrote:really scary times we live in, we have allowed free trade to destroy our economy


Yoop, this is where I stopped reading. Nothing personal, but if you don't understand what built the greatest 200 years of human evolution there is no sense going further. The history of mankind is ugly, the have's raping and pillaging from the have not's for riches. Only the market economy has allowed the have not's to become rich by serving their fellow men/women.


So flapack, why don't you state your case, instead of just lecturing yoop in vague terms about something left unspoken that you think he doesn't understand? Your post doesn't clearly make a case for anything. Just leaves me wondering what your position is. No offense intended, just not sure what you are even saying here, or how exactly it relates to the topic of this thread. Are you arguing on behalf of this bill? Fill us in.
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Re: Meet Obamatrade - The Trans-Pacific Partnership

Postby yoop » Wed Jun 24, 2015 4:41 pm

flapackfan wrote:really scary times we live in, we have allowed free trade to destroy our economy


Yoop, this is where I stopped reading. Nothing personal, but if you don't understand what built the greatest 200 years of human evolution there is no sense going further. The history of mankind is ugly, the have's raping and pillaging from the have not's for riches. Only the market economy has allowed the have not's to become rich by serving their fellow men/women.


we have always been a consumer driven economy, people that buy goods is what made a select few very rich, those riches trickled down and helped make others rich, obviously everyone has benefited from that, but without the consumer none of that would be possible, once the profit margins bottomed out here because of increased wages and regulations, they sought cheap labor over seas, some of that was expected, but in the last 30 years there has been a sell off on U.S. labor abroad, huge payoffs of profits to CEO's kept there gross net profit margins lower, keeping there reportable income down, thus lowering tax revenue, as well as putting many on unemployment, we now have 50% population that pay no taxes, and over half of that because they have no reportable income.

to compete with China, as we now have to do (because of free trade) we have to become China, what part of that do you not understand FPF, seems pretty black and white to me.

A capitolist sociaty works fine as long as you keep it inclusive, once you allow or help the rest of the world to elevate themselves to that standard the boat sinks and thats what where seeing now .
I'am sure you will point out where I'am wrong about this :lol: I probably am, but we had a good thing going 30 years ago before we opened up all the trade agreements.
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Re: Meet Obamatrade - The Trans-Pacific Partnership

Postby flapackfan » Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:02 pm

people that buy goods is what made a select few very rich,


People who have taken a risk to provide products/services that are marketable to the public have made themselves rich. I am responsible for my outcomes, you are responsible for yours.

BTW GLAL, I am not lecturing anyone, just pointing out that the free market has empowered the greatest expansion of personal freedom/opportunity in the history of mankind. Not in vague terms either, actually in very specific terms.
Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen prove that they are insured, but doesn't require every person to prove they are a citizen. Many who can't prove they are citizens will receive free insurance from those that are citizens.
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Re: Meet Obamatrade - The Trans-Pacific Partnership

Postby APB » Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:42 pm

I've read a few pieces on the pros and cons of this "fast track" legislation and, frankly, I'm not convinced it's wholly a terrible thing. The secrecy thing really bugs me, but what else is new with this administration?

As I understand it, the president will have the authority to negotiate trade deals that ultimately still need approval from congress. Congress can approve or reject the deal, they just won't have the authority to chip and peck at the pieces of the deal that don't benefit/prioritize their respective constituents. It's an all or nothing deal. Is that accurate?

As far as the ensuing trade treaties that come after "fast track" is approved, I have a hard time understanding how a sovereign nation is going to allow American corporations to challenge their own laws. I don't care what some trade treaty dictates; that nations laws would stand in the face of a challenge.

I'm certainly no expert on the subject and could stand to receive some insights from those that know a thing or two. Other than some world encompassing governing body conspiracy, what should I hate about this legislation?
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Re: Meet Obamatrade - The Trans-Pacific Partnership

Postby get louder at lambeau » Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:53 am

APB wrote:I've read a few pieces on the pros and cons of this "fast track" legislation and, frankly, I'm not convinced it's wholly a terrible thing. The secrecy thing really bugs me, but what else is new with this administration?


The secrecy thing SHOULD bug you. What a great way to sneak bad legislation through without all those pesky citizens getting in the way of laws that corporations want their lapdog politicians to pass. This should be killed unless and until they are ready to debate it in public.

As I understand it, the president will have the authority to negotiate trade deals that ultimately still need approval from congress. Congress can approve or reject the deal, they just won't have the authority to chip and peck at the pieces of the deal that don't benefit/prioritize their respective constituents. It's an all or nothing deal. Is that accurate?


Yes, I think that is about accurate. Now Obama, and the next President, probably Hillary, can negotiate these deals, and Congress can only vote yay or nay on them. They will be thousands of pages long each, and will undoubtedly be rushed through Congress just like fast track was. Nothing could go wrong there, right?

They are supposed to be accountable to us. How is that possible when they pass secret laws that we can't read? "Trust us," seems to be the idea. Trouble is, they are corrupt as #$%!, and the majority of the public already knows better than to trust them. So they do this under cover of secrecy.

As far as the ensuing trade treaties that come after "fast track" is approved, I have a hard time understanding how a sovereign nation is going to allow American corporations to challenge their own laws. I don't care what some trade treaty dictates; that nations laws would stand in the face of a challenge.


From what I have read, the laws would stand, but the foreign companies could sue for unlimited damages based on "expected future profits" that any law may effect. International corporations have already used existing ISDS laws to sue countries for raising their minimum wage, for example. It doesn't overturn the new minimum wage law, but it forces the country to compensate the corporation for the difference the wage change would make to their "expected future profits".

Picture this - Vietnam raises their minimum wage from $100 per month to $150 per month. Nike sues Vietnam, and the ISDS arbitration panel says that Vietnam has to pay Nike what the difference in the wages going forward. The people of Vietnam have to reimburse Nike, and Nike, after the settlement is factored in, doesn't have to pay the new minimum wage. Well, they pay it, but are reimbursed the amount of the increase. In effect, it prioritizes the rights of international corporations to their "expected future profits" over the rights of sovereign governments to do what they think is in the best interest of the country. The country might not pass the new law at all, because they are concerned about being sued into bankruptcy.

I'm certainly no expert on the subject and could stand to receive some insights from those that know a thing or two. Other than some world encompassing governing body conspiracy, what should I hate about this legislation?


Here's an expert -


Here's a video from Australia explaining the basics -
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Re: Meet Obamatrade - The Trans-Pacific Partnership

Postby get louder at lambeau » Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:47 am

These guys analyzed a leaked chapter of the TPP -
http://citizen.org/documents/tpp-invest ... k-2015.pdf


Here's a blip-

As revealed in Section B of the leaked text, these tribunals would not meet standards of transparency,
consistency or due process common to TPP countries’ domestic legal systems or provide fair,
independent or balanced venues for resolving disputes. For instance, the tribunals would be staffed by private sector lawyers unaccountable to any electorate, system of precedent or substantive appeal.
Many of those involved rotate between acting as “judges” and as advocates for the investors launching
cases against governments. Such dual roles would be deemed unethical in most legal systems.
The
leaked text does not include new conflict of interest rules, despite growing concern about the bias
inherent in the ISDS system.
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Re: Meet Obamatrade - The Trans-Pacific Partnership

Postby get louder at lambeau » Thu Jun 25, 2015 2:07 am

Anyone hear any informative PRO-TTP stuff? Or are they just keeping their mouths shut while they #$%! us behind the curtain?
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Re: Meet Obamatrade - The Trans-Pacific Partnership

Postby APB » Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:56 pm

I found this to be an informative read. Not necessarily pro or con but it does lay down a primer of sorts for those looking to glean what it's all about.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/making-sense/full-dress-battle-awaits-know-tpp/

Of note in the summary section:

Opponents will (and have already) loudly claim that, if ratified, the Trans-Pacific Partnership will reduce U.S. wages, cost U.S. jobs, jeopardize lives abroad and enable predatory corporations to resemble the dinosaurs in Jurassic World. We profoundly disagree with each of these claims. According to sound econometric estimates, the benefits to America from the Trans-Pacific Partnership will outweigh the costs to dislocated workers by more than 20 to one, and there is scant evidence that expanded trade depresses wages for the vast US workforce numbering 140 million. Nor is there any substantial evidence that trade agreements will deprive sick persons abroad of essential pharmaceuticals. But those debates are script for another day.
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Re: Meet Obamatrade - The Trans-Pacific Partnership

Postby APB » Fri Jun 26, 2015 1:49 am

Louder, I watched the videos you provided with interest. I'm no fan of Elizabeth Warren but the reservations she brought up over the ISDS tribunals seems legitimate. Definitely not a fan of that provision, assuming they are actually a part of the final treaty. If they are, I would not support congressional approval of any such treaty.

I understand the need for some secrecy during these treaty negotiations but, again, the steps this administration has taken with TPP - and their history of misleading and/or outright deception of the American public - is ridiculous. Can't help but presume more underhandedness is at play, as we've seen again and again.

As far as the need for the trade agreement, I understand the desire of the U.S. to build leverage against China in that region and, from reports, this deal does that. The Chinese have apparently expressed some interest in future involvement with the partners and, if they join, it forces them to play by the same rules they've ignored for so long.

Will emerging nation markets get exploited by some nefarious global corporate interests? Absolutely, but those isolated cases likely will be far outweighed by respectful suitors and the gains these respective nations receive through legitimate international investment will be worth that risk. Also, in turn, our economy (by many accounts) will see significant growth as a result.

It's hard to come to any conclusions based on the limited amount of information available. I definitely don't want to see another of the "we have to vote for it to see what's in it" deals but it sure seems that's where we're headed. That, in itself, makes me want to reject the deal altogether.
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Re: Meet Obamatrade - The Trans-Pacific Partnership

Postby get louder at lambeau » Tue Jun 30, 2015 4:08 am

Of course the banksters will get theirs. If they don't own the world yet, this will get them one step closer -
http://investmentwatchblog.com/tpp-gran ... tually-do/
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Re: Meet Obamatrade - The Trans-Pacific Partnership

Postby get louder at lambeau » Thu Jul 02, 2015 8:19 pm

So, the Obamatrade initiatives consists of TPP, TTIP, and TiSA.

TiSA is suppsedly the biggest of them all, and would remain secret for five years after implementation. -
http://rt.com/news/271138-wikileaks-tis ... documents/

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Re: Meet Obamatrade - The Trans-Pacific Partnership

Postby APB » Sun Jul 05, 2015 11:57 pm

We were warned back in 1981; we just didn't listen...

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Re: Meet Obamatrade - The Trans-Pacific Partnership

Postby get louder at lambeau » Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:18 pm

APB wrote:We were warned back in 1981; we just didn't listen...


We were warned back in 1935, not by a comedic actor on Barney Miller, but by a Marine Corps Brigadier General in sworn Congressional testimony.

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Re: Meet Obamatrade - The Trans-Pacific Partnership

Postby get louder at lambeau » Fri Jul 24, 2015 6:40 pm

MSNBC Cans Only Cable TV Host Who Extensively Covered TPP -
http://www.alternet.org/media/msnbc-can ... overed-tpp

Here is a graphic from the article. This guy getting fired eliminates the guy responsible for 92% of the TOTAL coverage of the TPP between these three big corporate media outlets. Apparently, it's important to the mainstream media that voters have no clue what's actually going on with these massive secret trade deals.

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Re: Meet Obamatrade - The Trans-Pacific Partnership

Postby APB » Fri Jul 24, 2015 9:48 pm

I have tuned into the Ed Schultz show from time to time just to get an idea of what that side of mainstream media is talking about. Truthfully, I couldn't get through an entire episode without turning the channel. Rachel Maddow, too.

Could it be his show was cancelled because it was terrible, with ratings consistently in the dumpster?

I can appreciate your call for public awareness of the TPP legislation. Hell, before this thread I hadn't given it much thought at all. I'm now glad I did. But, c'mon. Ed Schultz should have been canned years ago. Because they finally dropped the ax doesn't necessarily make it a conspiracy to hide the facts about TPP.
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