Donald Trump is running for President

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Re: Donald Trump is running for President

Postby Waldo » Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:29 pm

Pckfn23 wrote:I would love to hear how education in America is systemically indoctrinating elementary school kids (or any age) "about" LGBT and "global warming?"

I would also like to hear about all these liberal policies that have fundamentally weakened our education system over the last 25 years and created a population of lazy and unskilled workers.


Well if the anti-bullying movement (LGBT were always big time targets), you know, be nice to other people, even if they are different, is "indoctrination," than so be it. That's not a bad thing.

Its pretty hard not to "indoctrinate" kids on global warming without going to a purely religious school that teaches no science; flat earthers can avoid it, but anyone who cares to live in reality cannot. The earth is getting warmer, this is no longer a fact subject to debate, it is accepted truth. It is one of the basic pieces about the world in which we live. One may argue about the causes, but the basic fact that the world is warming is no longer arguable.

In the last 25 years, every cohort has improved in school, some dramatically. We do produce too many general white collar workers (hence the lazy) and too few blue collar workers (and hence the unskilled) though; probably a side effect of educational opportunities being a bit too easy(? not the right word ?) and out of sync with the labor market. Its way too easy for kids to deeply in debt to get a useless degree. Then again, this is not really a liberal problem, since the liberals are the ones fighting to change it, R's want to keep the status quo.
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Re: Donald Trump is running for President

Postby Pckfn23 » Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:36 pm

We got away from tracking about 15 years ago. It has made a small comeback. We do need to get back to that in some form, however.
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Re: Donald Trump is running for President

Postby Papa John » Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:45 pm

Waldo wrote:The broader issue is that we have no way or don't allow for early identification and branching of career paths. In more socialized countries (read, almost all of them), kids are funneled on career paths much earlier than we are; we end up prepping and sending a lot of kids to 4 year colleges who are totally unsuited for it (who then go on to get what they can degree-wise, or worse, fail to get one), there is just no intervention mechanism to stop that train before it has consequences. This is why skilled trades are seriously hurting for people and pay really well, while there is a glut of people with largely useless degrees that have almost no useful skills and huge loans to pay off.



Is that something that you would support? I mean, I get why socialist countries do it- the government is running the show and therefore they need these policies to make the educations system as efficient as possible. But damn, that doesn't sound like freedom to me at all. On the contrary, it sounds like a system where young people more or less are treated as working capital.

You can't expect someone to have their career path mapped out and holding a compass by the time they are 18 years old. They need to decide for themselves. The idea of a government "funneling" kids to different career paths just sounds kind of- icky... Interesting talking point though.
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Re: Donald Trump is running for President

Postby Waldo » Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:48 pm

Papa John wrote:Is that something that you would support? I mean, I get why socialist countries do it- the government is running the show and therefore they need these policies to make the educations system as efficient as possible. But damn, that doesn't sound like freedom to me at all. On the contrary, it sounds like a system where young people more or less are treated as working capital.

You can't expect someone to have their career path mapped out and holding a compass by the time they are 18 years old. They need to decide for themselves. The idea of a government "funneling" kids to different career paths just sounds kind of- icky... Interesting talking point though.


They are being funneled though, on a college track. Obviously its what the students, parents, system all want. College = good.

Except college is where the real world happens. It costs money. A lot of it. The usefulness of many degrees is debatable. Degrees are exclusive, you don't get passed through, you have to be able to hack it in the classes, which for the hard degrees, are exponentially harder than anything the student has ever encountered before (plus likely the parents, teachers, and school admins as well).

Our education system is a byproduct of the school game that parents play.

The school "game" cuts across the political spectrum though, its as much socioeconomic as anything. Many parents, especially white/asian, are willing to do anything to give their children the best possible education. School shopping, pushing for advantageous classes, etc.. (it is what creates land value in urban residential areas). I don't know when it started but the game has changed over the years. I know when I was a kid it existed, but was much less intense than it is nowadays (those same parents that beat up coaches and each other, guess how they treat the school). The game is very strong nowadays, something I've been a part of lately with my little one. Interesting how game choices concentrate people, the parents of our kids' classmates are mirror images of us, its almost freaky.

All the advantages you can give a kid by playing the game to the max though don't amount to a hill of beans when it comes to successfully getting a good degree in college. But just about every parent tries, especially white/asian parents.

Nobody is willing to tell parents that their kid is a try hard idiot. Try hard idiots can do well in school; our public education system is stupidly easy, especially if you put forth some effort (the need to do so though is definitely a red flag). But that doesn't help in the real world.

Like I said (and is painfully obvious in employment stats), we produce too many general (non STEM-Law-Medical) white collar workers and too few blue collar workers.

The millennial generation, many with huge student loans and useless degrees, are big time victims of the game, parents decided what was best for their kids, assuming parents knew best, and...

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I'm not against taking power out of the hands of parents at all in the public education system at all. I mean I have a coveted STEM degree; you pretty much could have identified me as a future engineer from the time I was in diapers. I mean, I owned all other kids when it came to building things with Legos, and once we got to critical thinking math (vs. memorization) in 4th grade, I zoomed to the top of the class quickly and was added to the G&T program (as opposed to the kids whose parents played the game better than mine, who were there from day 1). From then on it was very clear I was gifted in that area (math/science/design); sure enough I found my way to an engineering degree. The military test that you have to do in HS also identified that, as well as all the other standardized tests we did.

Taking power out of the hands of parents is bad for the parents of try hard idiots (but good for the kids in the long run), but it helps all the legit smart kids and their parents (for whom the game isn't nearly as important). Its a zero sum game in the end. Colleges will still produce the same number of exclusive degrees.
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Re: Donald Trump is running for President

Postby Pckfn23 » Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:46 pm

Our society, more than in the last 90 years treats people as working capital.

One thing you have to realize also is that we did tracking up until about the turn of the century. It didn't result in the anti-freedom that is so scary. Kids had a choice to through their given talents and ambition. Now it doesn't mean they are completely tracked in one lane all the way through. They could change focus. The point is, that they do decide from themselves.

A lot of what is going on right now is to grade on skill not on behavior, which should combat some of what Waldo was talking about.

The biggest issue over the last 20 years was telling kids they can be whatever they wanted and that they should do what they love. Just a stupid thing for our society to have taught an entire generation.
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Re: Donald Trump is running for President

Postby wallyuwl » Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:53 am

Pckfn23 wrote:The biggest issue over the last 20 years was telling kids they can be whatever they wanted and that they should do what they love. Just a stupid thing for our society to have taught an entire generation.


The thing that used to be taught, but isn't any longer really, is that you can do what you want and love as long as you work hard enough to obtain it. The last part of that, working hard, isn't part of the equation anymore.

But I don't see what is so wrong about children believing they can obtain their dreams if they work hard.

I wanted to be a scientist and author, especially once I realized I wouldn't be the next Ken Rutgers. :lol: I got a PhD and am a college faculty member; I do science and write up and publish the papers. I also teach which I didn't think I'd do, but that is part of the job and I mostly enjoy it.

Should they just do whatever the govt. tells them to?
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Re: Donald Trump is running for President

Postby Pckfn23 » Tue Sep 29, 2015 2:44 pm

Who is saying the government should tell them what they should be?

What is wrong with telling a generation they can just do what they love is 2 fold. First they might not be any good at what they love. No hard work will ever change that. Second is the viability of a job in what they love. There is a very good change that psychology, music, performance arts, most liberal arts major, will not get you a sustainable job in that field. This is what Waldo was speaking to, too many kids are going to college or majoring in a field that does not offer them much of a chance to find a job that meaningful to society. Too many of these kids have been fed unrealistic expectations.

Mike Rowe said it best:
A few years ago, I did a special called “The Dirty Truth.” In it, I challenged the conventional wisdom of popular platitudes by offering “dirtier,” more individualistic alternatives. For my inspiration, I looked to those hackneyed bromides that hang on the walls of corporate America. The ones that extoll passersby to live up to their potential by “dreaming bigger,” “working smarter,” and being a better “team player.” In that context, I first saw “Follow Your Passion” displayed in the conference room of a telemarketing firm that employed me thirty years ago. The words appeared next to an image of a rainbow, arcing gently over a waterfall and disappearing into a field of butterflies. Thinking of it now still makes me throw up in my mouth.

Like all bad advice, “Follow Your Passion” is routinely dispensed as though it’s wisdom were both incontrovertible and equally applicable to all. It’s not. Just because you’re passionate about something doesn’t mean you won’t suck at it. And just because you’re determined to improve doesn’t mean that you will. Does that mean you shouldn’t pursue a thing you’re passionate about?” Of course not. The question is, for how long, and to what end?

When it comes to earning a living and being a productive member of society – I don’t think people should limit their options to those vocations they feel passionate towards. I met a lot of people on Dirty Jobs who really loved their work. But very few of them dreamed of having the career they ultimately chose. I remember a very successful septic tank cleaner who told me his secret of success. “I looked around to see where everyone else was headed, and then I went the opposite way,” he said. “Then I got good at my work. Then I found a way to love it. Then I got rich.”

Every time I watch The Oscars, I cringe when some famous movie star – trophy in hand – starts to deconstruct the secret to happiness. It’s always the same thing, and I can never hit “mute” fast enough to escape the inevitable cliches. “Don’t give up on your dreams kids, no matter what.” “Don’t let anyone tell you that you don’t have what it takes.” And of course, “Always follow your passion!”

Today, we have millions looking for work, and millions of good jobs unfilled because people are simply not passionate about pursuing those particular opportunities. Do we really need Lady Gaga telling our kids that happiness and success can be theirs if only they follow their passion?

There are many examples – including those you mention – of passionate people with big dreams who stayed the course, worked hard, overcame adversity, and changed the world through sheer pluck and determination. We love stories that begin with a dream, and culminate when that dream comes true. And to your question, we would surely be worse off without the likes of Bill Gates and Thomas Edison and all the other innovators and Captains of Industry. But from my perspective, I don’t see a shortage of people who are willing to dream big. I see people struggling because their reach has exceeded their grasp.

I’m fascinated by the beginning of American Idol. Every year, thousands of aspiring pop-stars show up with great expectations, only to learn that they don’t have anything close to the skills they thought they did. What’s amazing to me, isn’t their lack of talent – it’s their lack of awareness, and the resulting shock of being rejected. How is it that so many people are so blind to their own limitations? How did these people get the impression they could sing in the first place? Then again, is their incredulity really so different than the surprise of a college graduate who learns on his first interview that his double major in Medieval Studies and French Literature doesn’t guarantee him the job he expected? In a world where everyone gets a trophy, encouragement trumps honesty, and realistic expectations go out the window.

When I was 16, I wanted to follow in my grandfather's footsteps. I wanted to be a tradesman. I wanted to build things, and fix things, and make things with my own two hands. This was my passion, and I followed it for years. I took all the shop classes at school, and did all I could to absorb the knowledge and skill that came so easily to my granddad. Unfortunately, the handy gene skipped over me, and I became frustrated. But I remained determined to do whatever it took to become a tradesman.

One day, I brought home a sconce from woodshop that looked like a paramecium, and after a heavy sigh, my grandfather told me the truth. He explained that my life would be a lot more satisfying and productive if I got myself a different kind of toolbox. This was almost certainly the best advice I’ve ever received, but at the time, it was crushing. It felt contradictory to everything I knew about persistence, and the importance of “staying the course.” It felt like quitting. But here’s the “dirty truth,” Stephen. “Staying the course” only makes sense if you’re headed in a sensible direction. Because passion and persistence – while most often associated with success – are also essential ingredients of futility.

That’s why I would never advise anyone to “follow their passion” until I understand who they are, what they want, and why they want it. Even then, I’d be cautious. Passion is too important to be without, but too fickle to be guided by. Which is why I’m more inclined to say, “Don’t Follow Your Passion, But Always Bring it With You.”

Carry On,
Mike
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Re: Donald Trump is running for President

Postby BF004 » Tue Sep 29, 2015 2:51 pm

Any takes on trumps tax plan?

Any non-partisan talking point takes on it?

Always kind of liked the idea of a 0% tax rate at the bottom. Even without mortgage and charitable deductions, I'd sure as hell come out a few thousand ahead each year.

His plans seems to be getting some good reviews from many who typically wouldn't normally praise him.
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Re: Donald Trump is running for President

Postby Papa John » Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:56 pm

Seems he wants to lower taxes for everyone.

Plan increases taxes on hedge fund gains.

Maximum 15% corporate and business tax.

Reduce tax brackets from 7 to 4.
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Re: Donald Trump is running for President

Postby BF004 » Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:29 pm

First deduction that should be chopped is political donations. Only a politician or those trying to buy politicians would think that's a fair deal.
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Re: Donald Trump is running for President

Postby Waldo » Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:47 pm

I have a very hard time believing it could be revenue neutral without also eliminating the department of defense. :lol:
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Re: Donald Trump is running for President

Postby BF004 » Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:18 pm

Waldo wrote:I have a very hard time believing it could be revenue neutral without also eliminating the department of defense. :lol:


I don't want it to be revenue neutral, revenue should be cut by ~30-50% (obviously with spending as well). I can spend my extra 5k a hell of a lot more responsibly and beneficial for the economy than can the gov.
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Re: Donald Trump is running for President

Postby Beagle » Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:57 pm

BF004 wrote:I don't want it to be revenue neutral, revenue should be cut by ~30-50% (obviously with spending as well). I can spend my extra 5k a hell of a lot more responsibly and beneficial for the economy than can the gov.


Logic says to pay off the deficit, get a surplus, gain money from interest off the surplus, use said money to fund government programs. Don't spend what you don't have.

I still don't get why Trump would even discuss his tax plan now. Too far away from the election. He doesn't need to sell that now, it just gives his rivals and the media time to nit pick him to death over it.
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Re: Donald Trump is running for President

Postby Lord Ben » Thu Oct 01, 2015 5:03 am

Pckfn23 wrote:Who is saying the government should tell them what they should be?

What is wrong with telling a generation they can just do what they love is 2 fold. First they might not be any good at what they love. No hard work will ever change that. Second is the viability of a job in what they love. There is a very good change that psychology, music, performance arts, most liberal arts major, will not get you a sustainable job in that field. This is what Waldo was speaking to, too many kids are going to college or majoring in a field that does not offer them much of a chance to find a job that meaningful to society. Too many of these kids have been fed unrealistic expectations.

Mike Rowe said it best:


Maybe I need to go back and read more to get this in context but it would appear I... *shudder*... agree with you! ;)
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Re: Donald Trump is running for President

Postby Waldo » Thu Oct 01, 2015 2:45 pm

Lord Ben wrote:
Pckfn23 wrote:Who is saying the government should tell them what they should be?

What is wrong with telling a generation they can just do what they love is 2 fold.


Maybe I need to go back and read more to get this in context but it would appear I... *shudder*... agree with you! ;)


Education is an odd subject because neither party has much in the way of a comprehensive platform and there is a lot of intermingling of traditional R and D viewpoints; very few people see things in an ideologically strict way.

And there really is a limit to how much influence the government can even have, or heck even schools. Children are ultimately the byproduct of the educational environment their parents create for them, which starts first and foremost with their parents lifestyle.
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