OT Kaepernick

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Re: OT Kaepernick

Postby OldPackerFan » Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:41 am

I cancelled my auto-renewal for NFL game pass yesterday. This will be the last year that the NFL gets a penny of my money. I never watch on TV either so anyone hoping to get advertising to me is wasting their money. It was always a dream to go to a Packer game once in my life, I guess that dream is dead, I no longer want to. I am finally retired this year so it would not have been a big deal to drive 20 hours each way to that game, but I am not going to now,

Frankly the fishing is still pretty good in October and November. Maybe I will watch a few more games yet this season, at least the games the Packers win. I have taken up playing tennis again. It is a little strange that I am holding my own against men half my age who are pretty decent. Anyway I will be playing tennis on Sunday afternoon instead of watching the Packers, or out fishing if it is raining and tennis is impossible. Maybe I will go skiing late this year for the first time since 1968.

Yes, I understand that perception of disrespect and intent is what matters. A pretty girl in a flag bikini is not disrespectful unless she intends it to be disrespectful. But NFL players refusing to stand for the national anthem is disrespectful to anyone who has served in the armed forces or who loves this country because that is how we interpret it and everyone except a few liberal dolts knows it. If you know your action is going to be perceived as disrespectful and you do it anyway, you are disrespectful, regardless of your rationalizations. So to the NFL, and its apologists, 2 final words. #$%! you.
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Re: OT Kaepernick

Postby raptorman » Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:43 am

shopvack wrote:Regarding the NFL "going the PC route": Not everything is about business. Sometimes people say and do things because the feel it's the right thing to do.

And here's my problem with the NFL. They have a double standard. They allow the players to make political statements all the time. But criticize the refs after game, and you get fined.
The government has never had a power it did not abuse.
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Re: OT Kaepernick

Postby yoop » Sun Sep 24, 2017 2:02 pm

we went to war against oppression, yet we don't recognize Americans protesting oppression in our own country, instead we make it into a protest against the flag, or our hero's who fought said oppression, talk about twisting something from what it is into something it never was.

lis, this has always been a racial issue, and proves my point, there are more White racist minded people then people will admit, refocusing this against the flag, or the song is what racist have been doing my whole life, I'am glad Kaepernick and the other athletes are exposing this racism.

I really love the crap about protesting on the owners dime, APB ( not to spot light you Rob) asked me should a employer allow a worker to protest at work, he had me, he made a good point, but then I've worked for many different employeers, and not one of them asked me to stand while he played the national anthem on the viktrolla.
or told me that while there paying me they owned my mind as well, that I had to support there view points about my personal issues concerning issues that affect my race, employeers don't own people, there simply renting my services.

I hate to see it affecting my favorite sport, but I'll support the cause of this protest no matter what happens to the sport, in fact the sport has turned into $$$$$$$$$$ and has left me behind a long time back.


there is a select group of sheep that will mimick this president no matter what he says, you people are the sad ones.
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Re: OT Kaepernick

Postby APB » Sun Sep 24, 2017 2:23 pm

yoop wrote:I really love the crap about protesting on the owners dime, APB ( not to spot light you Rob) asked me should a employer allow a worker to protest at work, he had me, he made a good point, but then I've worked for many different employeers, and not one of them asked me to stand while he played the national anthem on the viktrolla.
or told me that while there paying me they owned my mind as well, that I had to support there view points about my personal issues concerning issues that affect my race, employeers don't own people, there simply renting my services.

That is not at all what I said. Perhaps you should refresh yourself:

APB wrote:I'll tell you why I don't support him - he has no right to use the platform afforded him by his employer to promote an opinion held by him, an individual. If he wants to use his fame and notoriety as a player to promote a message on his time, more power to him. I won't support someone, tho, who thinks it OK to use an employers stage on his employers time while choosing highly controversial methods to promote an individual agenda.

And don't tell me I'm full of it. I was subjected to the same limitations when I served in the Army. As long as I wore the uniform, I was not allowed to voice political opinion or project taking a side. I was only allowed to practice political activism on my time, out of uniform.

I don't think that's asking too much of any professional athlete. There fame gives them all the voice they need. They have no right to hijack my viewership to promote some ideological BS.


I never contended that employers "own the minds" of employees or that employees are committed to support the political/social views of the employer. I simply said these athletes have no right to act out on the stage provided by their employers.

It's interesting you speak of others clouding the issue of why Kap is doing what he's doing yet feel no reservations about doing the exact same thing with others posts.
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Re: OT Kaepernick

Postby Willink » Sun Sep 24, 2017 2:45 pm

wallyuwl wrote:Sal, i understand you trying to make sense of all this. But not being in the USA, i dont think you can. And it was hard to take the majority of your post seriously when the first thing you said, that NFL player on field protests had died down, is absolutely false.



I think Sal actually has a better perspective, if anything. USA is steeped in flag worship to a near-religious extent. Hence players protesting police being taken as synonymous with hating America. NFL is barely a private business, they receive billions in govt subsidize and tax benefits you or I would not be accorded.
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Re: OT Kaepernick

Postby yoop » Sun Sep 24, 2017 2:48 pm

OldPackerFan wrote:I cancelled my auto-renewal for NFL game pass yesterday. This will be the last year that the NFL gets a penny of my money. I never watch on TV either so anyone hoping to get advertising to me is wasting their money. It was always a dream to go to a Packer game once in my life, I guess that dream is dead, I no longer want to. I am finally retired this year so it would not have been a big deal to drive 20 hours each way to that game, but I am not going to now,

Frankly the fishing is still pretty good in October and November. Maybe I will watch a few more games yet this season, at least the games the Packers win. I have taken up playing tennis again. It is a little strange that I am holding my own against men half my age who are pretty decent. Anyway I will be playing tennis on Sunday afternoon instead of watching the Packers, or out fishing if it is raining and tennis is impossible. Maybe I will go skiing late this year for the first time since 1968.

Yes, I understand that perception of disrespect and intent is what matters. A pretty girl in a flag bikini is not disrespectful unless she intends it to be disrespectful. But NFL players refusing to stand for the national anthem is disrespectful to anyone who has served in the armed forces or who loves this country because that is how we interpret it and everyone except a few liberal dolts knows it. If you know your action is going to be perceived as disrespectful and you do it anyway, you are disrespectful, regardless of your rationalizations. So to the NFL, and its apologists, 2 final words. #$%! you.


could it be that you want to perceive there actions as disrespectful? and that you don't support there cause, and use the flag and the anthem to gloss over your feelings.

this is what I hear from many NFL fans, my impression is that they don't or wont accept that these athletes are protesting a very worthy cause, simply because they don't care about the cause, and use the flag and anthem to spill more hate for black people, I wish people would come clean about about there true feelings instead of hiding behind a flag and a song instead of what they really think.

these athletes are exposing life changing consequinces that affect people of there race every day, not sure why you have such a issue seeing these protest for what they actually are, quit using my time in the military, and what every service member fought for to gloss over racism, thousands of Black people fought and died for the rights of these athletes to speak this message to, what every White swinging di-k should be doing is listening to it, versus getting all butt hurt and hiding behind our flag.
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Re: OT Kaepernick

Postby Willink » Sun Sep 24, 2017 3:19 pm

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Re: OT Kaepernick

Postby salmar80 » Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:00 pm

Willink wrote:
wallyuwl wrote:Sal, i understand you trying to make sense of all this. But not being in the USA, i dont think you can. And it was hard to take the majority of your post seriously when the first thing you said, that NFL player on field protests had died down, is absolutely false.



I think Sal actually has a better perspective, if anything. USA is steeped in flag worship to a near-religious extent. Hence players protesting police being taken as synonymous with hating America. NFL is barely a private business, they receive billions in govt subsidize and tax benefits you or I would not be accorded.

While living in the States, I used to snicker at all the flag waving and "hurrah patriotism". If you're patriotic, you needed to really make it SHOW. It was beyond comical from my perspective.

In Finland, patriotism is waaaay more low key, and often accompanied by sarcasm: There's an article about Finland being among happiest countries in the world and most comments were like "so, they only asked Finns on summer vacation in Spain?" People certainly are patriotic, to extent most all male population is willing to take up arms without pay if called, but waving a flag is considered sorta fake or redundant. You're assumed patriotic, so no need to make big deal outta it.

I thought about it some since, and the difference makes sense. The American flag and the anthem are vague but strong symbols of....whatever is important to you.

Both can simply be symbols of your country, patriotism, but also many other things: The military and its vets, other occupations considered patriotic, your home and family, social/political unity and shared values, constitution and history, individual pride (I'm part of a great country, and by extension, great myself), victory over oppression, etc. On level of feelings, doesn't matter which or what combo. As long as you wave it, you can pick.

In Finland we compartmentalize. For example, the flag isn't a symbol of the military. We have a coat of arms for that. National anthem is considered pompous, fit only for the government and athletic events. If we want to get patriotic over history or nature, we listen to Finlandia or some iconic marching songs instead. Social unity is shown in working class political and pop songs. To an American, it would probably appear Finns are unpatriotic. Not so.
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Re: OT Kaepernick

Postby wallyuwl » Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:29 pm

Some good discussion, especially by OPF and Sal.

The flag and anthem are different in America than anywhere else. The flag was from the Revolution, and a strong symbol even when created. The anthem holds historical meaning from the war of 1812, even though it wasnt officially the anthem until later. But both these things have inherent meaning for reverance to the soldiers who have fought and died for the thing that America stands for more than any other, and was relatively alone in the world in this regard when the flag and Star Spangled Banner were created: liberty.

Over time the symbolism has grown stronger with things like the raising of the flag on Iwo Jima, and the tradition of draping it over caskets of soldiers and first responders.

So protesting the cause is fine, even if hypocritical because of its omission of black on black and black on white police brutality. Or that none of these officers have been found guilty in a court of law where the facts are presented. But doing it by dishonoring the flag and anthem was sure to cause outrage, and rightly so. Dishonoring the flag and anthem dishonors what it they represent historically and culturally. And many people take issue with doing it on company time using the company podium.

The thing is, by being stupid about how they protest, they lost control of the message of their cause. Last year the story quickly turned into how CK was a disresprectful spoiled entitled punk, and really hasnt deviated from that (only now with other players).

Listening to pregame now, and the NFL is quickly losing control of the situation. Vikings going to kneel as a team. Steelers going to stay in the locker room during anthem. This is going to blow up in the NFLs face and they will hope for the good old days of a 13% ratings decline.
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Re: OT Kaepernick

Postby yoop » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:18 pm

The flag and anthem are different in America than anywhere else. The flag was from the Revolution, and a strong symbol even when created. The anthem holds historical meaning from the war of 1812, even though it wasnt officially the anthem until later. But both these things have inherent meaning for reverance to the soldiers who have fought and died for the thing that America stands for more than any other, and was relatively alone in the world in this regard when the flag and Star Spangled Banner were created: liberty.

I'd bet 99% of upset NFL fans don't know this stuff Wally, and liberty for black people resulted in the flag, who better to protest abuses under the cover of it, I bet the American Indian wishes they had a flag that protected there rights.

so ignorant of Whites to hide behind a flag, everyone with half a brain can see right through this bigotry and racism, and if the NFL takes a hit or folds up tent completely the fans will only have there racists view points to blame over it.
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Re: OT Kaepernick

Postby Mendeleev » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:33 pm

BF004 wrote:
[size=150]He’s said he’s fine with players protesting, within reason and as long as they follow up their protests with action. Kaepernick has certainly done that (promising to donate $1 million to a variety of causes), so that part shouldn’t be a problem.



Funniest line is the last part. As long as they follow up their protests with action. Then notes Kaepernick's lack of action in the next sentence, lol.


??

But Kaepernick has been donating to different causes throughout the year, starting in October 2016, totalling $900,000 already, with another $100,000 to go. I don't see where in your quote it is noted there is a lack of action.

lol


Edit:

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/08/colin-kaepernick-nfl-national-anthem-protest-one-million-dollar-pledge-donations-empower-communities

http://kaepernick7.com/
Last edited by Mendeleev on Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: OT Kaepernick

Postby yoop » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:34 pm

Willink wrote:http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-09-23/danger-patriotism


thanks for sharing Willink, I read this a while back somewhere, so spot on, I wish everyone would take a moment and read this.
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Re: OT Kaepernick

Postby shopvack » Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:35 pm

raptorman wrote:
shopvack wrote:Regarding the NFL "going the PC route": Not everything is about business. Sometimes people say and do things because the feel it's the right thing to do.

And here's my problem with the NFL. They have a double standard. They allow the players to make political statements all the time. But criticize the refs after game, and you get fined.


I don't see the equivalency here. Political statements have no bearing on the game and how it flows. Criticising the refs is a direct attack on those who judge the games week in and week out. Not saying I agree with fining folks for the ref comments, but I can see how one is deemed ok and the other not without hypocrisy
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Re: OT Kaepernick

Postby dirty sanchez » Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:55 pm

shopvack wrote:
raptorman wrote:
shopvack wrote:Regarding the NFL "going the PC route": Not everything is about business. Sometimes people say and do things because the feel it's the right thing to do.

And here's my problem with the NFL. They have a double standard. They allow the players to make political statements all the time. But criticize the refs after game, and you get fined.


I don't see the equivalency here. Political statements have no bearing on the game and how it flows. Criticising the refs is a direct attack on those who judge the games week in and week out. Not saying I agree with fining folks for the ref comments, but I can see how one is deemed ok and the other not without hypocrisy

Political statements will surely have a bearing on game attendance, though. People don't want to spend several hundred dollars and a whole afternoon only to feel slighted by the very people whose salaries they are paying.

So when people say and do things that they feel is right but end up adversely affecting the business that has afforded them the elite lifestyle they enjoy, then yes. It is all about the business.
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Re: OT Kaepernick

Postby OldPackerFan » Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:06 pm

yoop wrote:The flag and anthem are different in America than anywhere else. The flag was from the Revolution, and a strong symbol even when created. The anthem holds historical meaning from the war of 1812, even though it wasnt officially the anthem until later. But both these things have inherent meaning for reverance to the soldiers who have fought and died for the thing that America stands for more than any other, and was relatively alone in the world in this regard when the flag and Star Spangled Banner were created: liberty.

I'd bet 99% of upset NFL fans don't know this stuff Wally, and liberty for black people resulted in the flag, who better to protest abuses under the cover of it, I bet the American Indian wishes they had a flag that protected there rights.

so ignorant of Whites to hide behind a flag, everyone with half a brain can see right through this bigotry and racism, and if the NFL takes a hit or folds up tent completely the fans will only have there racists view points to blame over it.


I am disgusted by your blatant racism, yoop. Respecting the sacrifices that veterans made is not bigotry or racism. Acknowledging the families that lost a son, a father, a brother or a sister is not unreasonable. Regardless of what you say, what those disgusting spoiled millionaire brats are doing is a direct and deliberate attempt to rub salt into the wounds of those families, those veterans. It is nothing less than spitting into the face of a child attending his father's funeral, a father killed in a war or a mother shot in the face by a criminal while working a a police officer. Making the accusations that you have made IS racism and bigotry. You need to take a hard look in the mirror at yourself before you accuse anyone else of bigotry and racism. <SNIP - bigotry and racism are topics here, but pure personal insults won't fly.>
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