Las Vegas

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Las Vegas

Postby Willink » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:29 pm

Unconscionable attack on innocent people, story seemingly devoid of details (guy barely had so much as a traffic ticket), bodies aren't even cold yet and victims have yet to be fully identified yet are already being used as political capital.


Rolling updates:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/mor ... -shooting/
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Re: Las Vegas

Postby Papa John » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:48 pm

Buddy of mine was in the front row right next to the stage when it all went down. He's ok thankfully. Seems a lot of people here in Southern CA knew someone who was there. Praying for everyone.
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Re: Las Vegas

Postby texas » Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:02 pm

Papa John wrote:Buddy of mine was in the front row right next to the stage when it all went down. He's ok thankfully. Seems a lot of people here in Southern CA knew someone who was there. Praying for everyone.


Yeah one of my socal friends had several friends shot, none of them dead thankfully
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Re: Las Vegas

Postby Pugger » Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:11 am

What ever could drive a someone to commit such a heinous act? It is apparent he carefully planned this dastardly deed and wanted to create as much carnage as possible. The weapon he used is already illegal so I don't know what more could be done legislatively. I wonder if high rise buildings like this hotel will have to go the route of airports and start x-raying patrons' luggage before they can get past the lobby? Next week Sweet Adelines International is having our annual convention at the MGM. I suspect security will be intense. I will not be going there this year. I was in Vegas last year but my chorus is not competing this time. We will be going to St. Louis in the fall of 2018.
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Re: Las Vegas

Postby raptorman » Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:12 pm

Another mass shooting, another gun debate. So, let’s look at this debate. Those on the left want stricter gun laws. But what good would they do? The man in Las Vegas broke laws. Which law stopped him? The law against murder? The law against owning fully automatic weapons? The law about discharging a firearm in city limits? With all those laws you would think one of them would have stopped him. But they didn’t. Why? Because he was a criminal. And criminals don’t abide by laws. But here we go again in the merry go round about guns.

First, they will bring ups Sandy Hook. And as horrible as it was, that’s the standard they will use. We just can’t let this happen again. Really? How about Chicago? Since Sandy Hook, 158 children have been killed on and in the streets of Chicago. Why don’t we hear about them? Maybe because it happens one child at a time. Or maybe because most of them are black kids shot by black men. BLM doesn’t like talking about them so I am sure the Democrats don’t want to either.

Then it will be about the 30,000 gun deaths each year. Now, one has to remember this number includes murders, suicides and accidents. But it’s the largest number they can come up with. If we just got rid of assault weapons this number would drop. Nope, it won’t. Maybe an outright ban like France has. That has worked out so well that the only people in France who have guns are the terrorists and the police. And the police are outgunned. But let’s look at that 30,000 number. Amazingly it’s about the same number of car deaths in the US each year. Now, many of those car deaths are caused by drunk drivers. We have the ability to pretty much eliminate drunk driving. It’s simple. Put a breathalyzer in each car that one has to blow into before you can start the car. This would eliminate about 15,000 deaths a year. But, do you see anyone jumping on that bandwagon? I wonder why? Could it be that it would be an inconvenience to the masses? After all, why should law abiding citizens be made to blow into a tube because of a couple hundred thousand drunks?

Third. It will be about the fact that the founding father couldn’t have imagined the rapid fire firearms we have today, so they must be banned. The founding fathers couldn’t have imagined the internet, TV, photography, cell phones and many other of the myriad forms in which we exercise our freedom of speech. Should we limit that to what was around in 1780’s? The printing press and the spoken word? Fact is, back when the first 10 amendments were written there were several multi fire weapons available, so they already knew the technology was there. This is a false narrative pushed by people with little knowledge of the history of guns.

Fourth. It will be about the second amendment and the term “well regulated militia”. Which according to many means the “National Guard”. The founding fathers were very much in tune with the fact of England’s common law allowed the right to bear arms to people well before the Bill of Rights. They knew that the people needed to be able to not only defend themselves from criminals but also as a defense against an overzealous government.

And lastly, it will be about the fact that we have police forces to protect us. This is the biggest lie of all. The police have no constitutional duty to protect anyone. Period. The Supreme Court has so ruled at least 10 times on this issue since 1984. The job of the police is to investigate crimes and arrest criminals, not protect everyday citizens.
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Re: Las Vegas

Postby Willink » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:01 pm

raptorman wrote:
And lastly, it will be about the fact that we have police forces to protect us. This is the biggest lie of all. The police have no constitutional duty to protect anyone. Period. The Supreme Court has so ruled at least 10 times on this issue since 1984. The job of the police is to investigate crimes and arrest criminals, not protect everyday citizens.


LVPD came out and admitted as much with there comments on this incident being nearly impossible to prevent, gun owner had a spotless record, you can't have scanning equipment everywhere, large open area concert surrounded by high-rises, et al.

I've had to block people out of stupidity on fb already re: the well regulated militia, evidently they believe that at a time the government was so small and decentralized (the entire population of the colonies was ~2 million in 1776) that it lacked the power to even tax its citizens, and during when a large % of European nations didn't even maintain standing armies, or, in the case of England specifically, even police forces until the 1820s, magically believed in centralized force of arms organized by the state.

Edit: going to go lift now, but think I'll do a series of posts on American colonial history from the 16th-18th century in the econ thread later, covering political, economic and diplomatic viz europe history during the period. In my experience a lot of peoples understanding of it is extremely bad, other than vague knowledge of early settlements in the Americas, tax revolts, and then the revolution itself despite there being 200 years of American history in there in the between period. Likewise for relevant European history in the same period, both as it was viewed here and as it impacted British views of governance here.
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Re: Las Vegas

Postby Stevedore » Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:20 pm

Two co-workers of mine were shot, one in the leg and the other not sure. Both are expected to be fine, just a terrible day. Tom Petty....
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Re: Las Vegas

Postby APB » Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:10 am

Willink wrote:
raptorman wrote:
And lastly, it will be about the fact that we have police forces to protect us. This is the biggest lie of all. The police have no constitutional duty to protect anyone. Period. The Supreme Court has so ruled at least 10 times on this issue since 1984. The job of the police is to investigate crimes and arrest criminals, not protect everyday citizens.


LVPD came out and admitted as much with there comments on this incident being nearly impossible to prevent, gun owner had a spotless record, you can't have scanning equipment everywhere, large open area concert surrounded by high-rises, et al.

I've had to block people out of stupidity on fb already re: the well regulated militia, evidently they believe that at a time the government was so small and decentralized (the entire population of the colonies was ~2 million in 1776) that it lacked the power to even tax its citizens, and during when a large % of European nations didn't even maintain standing armies, or, in the case of England specifically, even police forces until the 1820s, magically believed in centralized force of arms organized by the state.

Edit: going to go lift now, but think I'll do a series of posts on American colonial history from the 16th-18th century in the econ thread later, covering political, economic and diplomatic viz europe history during the period. In my experience a lot of peoples understanding of it is extremely bad, other than vague knowledge of early settlements in the Americas, tax revolts, and then the revolution itself despite there being 200 years of American history in there in the between period. Likewise for relevant European history in the same period, both as it was viewed here and as it impacted British views of governance here.

I'm all for this but would ask you start this discussion in a separate thread unless it specifically relates to the econ thread. Sounds like a wider range topic as you described it. Look forward to reading it.
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Re: Las Vegas

Postby Criticuria » Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:34 pm

raptorman wrote:Another mass shooting, another gun debate. So, let’s look at this debate. Those on the left want stricter gun laws. But what good would they do? The man in Las Vegas broke laws. Which law stopped him? The law against murder? The law against owning fully automatic weapons? The law about discharging a firearm in city limits? With all those laws you would think one of them would have stopped him. But they didn’t. Why? Because he was a criminal. And criminals don’t abide by laws. But here we go again in the merry go round about guns.

First, they will bring ups Sandy Hook. And as horrible as it was, that’s the standard they will use. We just can’t let this happen again. Really? How about Chicago? Since Sandy Hook, 158 children have been killed on and in the streets of Chicago. Why don’t we hear about them? Maybe because it happens one child at a time. Or maybe because most of them are black kids shot by black men. BLM doesn’t like talking about them so I am sure the Democrats don’t want to either.

Then it will be about the 30,000 gun deaths each year. Now, one has to remember this number includes murders, suicides and accidents. But it’s the largest number they can come up with. If we just got rid of assault weapons this number would drop. Nope, it won’t. Maybe an outright ban like France has. That has worked out so well that the only people in France who have guns are the terrorists and the police. And the police are outgunned. But let’s look at that 30,000 number. Amazingly it’s about the same number of car deaths in the US each year. Now, many of those car deaths are caused by drunk drivers. We have the ability to pretty much eliminate drunk driving. It’s simple. Put a breathalyzer in each car that one has to blow into before you can start the car. This would eliminate about 15,000 deaths a year. But, do you see anyone jumping on that bandwagon? I wonder why? Could it be that it would be an inconvenience to the masses? After all, why should law abiding citizens be made to blow into a tube because of a couple hundred thousand drunks?

Third. It will be about the fact that the founding father couldn’t have imagined the rapid fire firearms we have today, so they must be banned. The founding fathers couldn’t have imagined the internet, TV, photography, cell phones and many other of the myriad forms in which we exercise our freedom of speech. Should we limit that to what was around in 1780’s? The printing press and the spoken word? Fact is, back when the first 10 amendments were written there were several multi fire weapons available, so they already knew the technology was there. This is a false narrative pushed by people with little knowledge of the history of guns.

Fourth. It will be about the second amendment and the term “well regulated militia”. Which according to many means the “National Guard”. The founding fathers were very much in tune with the fact of England’s common law allowed the right to bear arms to people well before the Bill of Rights. They knew that the people needed to be able to not only defend themselves from criminals but also as a defense against an overzealous government.

And lastly, it will be about the fact that we have police forces to protect us. This is the biggest lie of all. The police have no constitutional duty to protect anyone. Period. The Supreme Court has so ruled at least 10 times on this issue since 1984. The job of the police is to investigate crimes and arrest criminals, not protect everyday citizens.

:AOK ... reading the NYTs articles and comments 98% say we have to do something about gun control, and then when you're waiting to hear what that is, ...crickets.
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Re: Las Vegas

Postby wallyuwl » Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:26 pm

Last night Tucker Carlson had a person on his show who wrote a column calling for more gun control, to "do something." When asked what specifically he would do and how those ideas would have prevented any of the recent mass shootings, crickets.
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Re: Las Vegas

Postby Criticuria » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:00 pm

wallyuwl wrote:Last night Tucker Carlson had a person on his show who wrote a column calling for more gun control, to "do something." When asked what specifically he would do and how those ideas would have prevented any of the recent mass shootings, crickets.

Yeah, this case especially is frustrating for those wanting tougher gun laws, because only national confiscation would have prevented this wacko, if even that.
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Re: Las Vegas

Postby Mendeleev » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:58 pm

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Re: Las Vegas

Postby wallyuwl » Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:51 am


Except the USA isn't the only place where these things happen.
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Re: Las Vegas

Postby Mendeleev » Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:06 am

wallyuwl wrote:

Except the USA isn't the only place where these things happen.


http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/27/health/u-s-most-mass-shootings/index.html

Between 1966 and 2012, there were 90 mass shootings in the United States. Mass shootings are defined for the study as having four or more victims and don't include gang killings or slayings that involve the death of multiple family members. These shootings include the Pulse nightclub shooting in Orlando in June 2016 -- the worst mass shooting in US history -- and others in an Aurora, Colorado, movie theater and at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut, both in 2012.

The 90 US mass shootings are nearly one-third of the 292 such attacks globally for that period. While the United States has 5% of the world's population, it had 31% of all public mass shootings.


https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/2/16399418/us-gun-violence-statistics-maps-charts
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Re: Las Vegas

Postby raptorman » Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:49 am

Shot & Killed: 499
Shot & Wounded: 2403
Total Shot: 2902

Chicago to date. 10/3/2017

Spare me your indignation about Las Vegas unless you are willing to address this.
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